Bat Speed -- Baseball Hitting Forum

Posted by: Coach C () on Fri May 28 00:58:05 2004

Hi All
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There has been a lot of discussion lately on the board regarding whether body rotation is generated from the ground or starts in the middle at the hips. Some say they initiate rotation with the legs as the heel lowers, others say they start with the hips with little coming from the legs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It may be interesting to discuss if it really matters. – Assume both theories generate the same rate of shoulder rotation. In that case, what differences to the swing plane or bat speed would the different theories produce?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I will be traveling to Oregon the next few days. Therefore, my opinion on the subject will be delayed until Friday or Saturday. Also, it might be longer between board updates.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This is the essence of all great swing/throwing mechanics in my opinion Jack. THT/BHT/Scap-load,inward turn, etc cannot be done effectively unless the middle of the body is king. It's a concept that I find very difficult to explain in words, but can easily show in demonstration. I believe Tom has said, "Arm action is king" and there may be some truth to that, but for me my success in teaching has come from starting with the middle of the body.
> > > > >
> > > > > The baseline of all good swings is to start at 50/50 with the weight and then stride to 50/50. I’m reminded of the typical T-ball player (5 to 6 yrs old) that is asked to hit the ball hard. Typically they counter-rotate the shoulders/hips and bat (thereby loading the weight on the back leg) only to rotate the entire body through on the hit through the ball. It’s the baseline for a swing that takes too much time, creates lunging and the incorrect usage of the hands, shoulders and hips. The true issue here is counter rotation. In as many as 98 percent of the swings I see below the Major League Level, most counter rotate, either the legs, hips, shoulders, arms or hands. This is death to a hitter in my mind and something I talk about to anyone that will listen.
> > > > >
> > > > > In order not to counter rotate, the legs, hips, shoulders, arms and hands must have a new understanding of what needs to take place. For many reasons really, but ideally for the benefit of time and a more efficient energy transfer. I’m reminded of a phrase “Eddie Merrins” (famous golf teacher) once said, “most people get lost in the back swing.” I wish I would have invented that phrase, but adding to it I would say, “There is only a forward swing”.
> > > > >
> > > > > The inward turn is one of the most misunderstood phrases I’ve had the pleasure of hearing. It is not a necessary component of a good swing, but when done correctly can certainly benefit the player. Let’s put it this way…….it should not be in the “Hitting 101” material. It’s for the more advanced player, who understands how to cock/turn the hips correctly.
> > > > >
> > > > > To your point in the original post as to the role of the legs. Any swing that would have the legs initiating the turn and having the hips follow (get in line, so to speak) is a swing that is counter rotating. A swing that leads with the pelvic region, making essentially a ¼ turn to the ball during the stride is the proper lower half movement and sets the table for the shoulders to swing through the ball as you describe. I’m sure we will go into much more detail on this as the discussion progresses, but the best I can say at this point is that hitting is much simpler than we think.
> > > > >
> > > > > One move to the ball is the baseline…..everything else I see is just a longer one move.
> > > > >
> > > > > Coach C
> > > > >
> > > > Go to www.teachersbilliards.com. You'll find a swing that starts in the center.
> > >
> > > Coach C,
> > >
> > > What don't you like 'going backwards'...the hands, shoulders, hips or all three? Are you suggesting starting square to the plate or in the prelaunch position (weight 40/60, hips cocked, hands hidden from pitcher)? - Tom Waz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Great question Tom.....here is my answer. Going backwards is generally considered counter-rotating. Now having said that, there are many hitters that load their weight on to the back-side before the stride, but key to a MLB swing is how they unload the weight in these swings. As I said in an earlier post the pelvic action must be king and if the hitter who loads back comes out of it with the legs turning the hips, then the hips joints will not cock correctly. A good indication is to watch the back knee during the swing......especially prior to moving to the ball. There should be no lateral sway of that knee....in fact it should be executing it's own little swing by way of the same pelvis that is turning the front leg on the forward move to the ball. Essentially the back leg is also responding to the pelvis. As you have I'm sure, I too have watched many a big league swing and without a doubt a picture is worth a million words. To that end....there have been a few players who have simplified the move over the years that I think should be the baseline model for all the other swings....they are Molitor, Garciaparra and McGwire in his later years. These hitter have no backward move to the ball at all. When you watch their swings you should only see a forward turn through the ball. All three are Hall of Famers in my mind and for the kids I like to point out the simplicity of there actions. There is no wasted movement and the swing looks simple. As for the hands and arms they should not be asked to move back. As I like to say, "where they start the swing starts". Again the emphasis is to not turn away from the ball at any point.
> >
> > As the student progresses he may then experiment with a longer swing, but again it's just a longer one move to the ball. (ie. Edgar Martinez, Juan Gonzales or for heavens sake....Julio Franco. They all employ the same pelvic action, but with different weight transfers through the stroke. To me this is where Jack's description of THT has meaning, but not before lower body action. I think Jack's description of THT may have value if the pulling back of the top hand takes place in the forward move to the ball. Most would mess that up and do it first in the swing.
> >
> > As I say Tom, going back is a phrase that is totally misunderstood by many and so I consider it a bad phrase. I find it more comfortable to tell the hitter start at 50/50 and don't go forward to early. When I say go forward it doesn't mean coming out of 50/50 as most people would think. The swing happens between the legs, not on top of them (a huge concept to understand in my opinion).
> >
> > I'm not sure I answered you clearly, but my hitters start at 50/50, hands wherever they want. For me I'm comfortable with them at the back arm pit.....much like Berkmann. It keeps my hands loose, however I could hold them anywhere with little problem. The issue is not the set-up, it's the execution of the proper swing, all the little pieces take care of themselves.
> >
> > I'd be glad to explain more to you if have more questions. I will not speak in scientific terms, because I'm just not that smart.
> >
> > One last thought....you put 100 kids on the batspeed indicator and about 100 would swing with their arms and legs for that speed. This is not right in my opinion and why I hate those things so much. Understand batspeed is crucial, but it must be done the right way.....effortlessly!!!!!!!! As it is done in golf!!!
> >
> > Coach C
>
> Coach C,
>
> I don't follow MLB very much but did go to http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html to look at Garciaparra's swing. I don't know how old this video clip is or if this is his normal swing but in a frame by frame it is clear (to me anyway) that there is SOME backward rotation of the shoulders (his hands disappear from view and his back elbow moves away from the plate) I can't discern any hip movement although his front knee does flex inward/upward somewhat. He does appear very balanced throughout the swing and there doesn't appear to be much, if any, work being done by the back leg supporting your view that the turn is initiated in the midsection. I guess what I'm asking is "is that small amount of inward turn, hip flex, knee cock or whatever you want to call it necessary and/or beneficial?" p.s. thanks for always answering my questions. - Tom Waz
>

Tom,

No problem this is a great clip. Counter rotation would have him taking the back knee back with the shoulders, but in this case the back knee has retained it's flex and his inward turn is taking place in the forward move. The lead hip (as it goes forward) is leading as the shoulders are coiling back (excellent sequencing). What you see is the leg turning, but what you can't see is the front foot responding to the turn of the pelvis. His front leg is turning because the hips are turning. He is loading as he is moving to the ball. This is a proper load and not what I see in a ton of swings.

To my point....if you tell someone to rotate....99% of kids are going to load while staying back, thus their forward move has no load at all......it becomes an arm swing that drags. The body can not load properly unless it is preceeded by the forward move to balance.

As for the back leg...it is cocking during the forward move, thus it already has responded to the hips....it just doesn't turn until later. The back hip cocking is a back leg that is responding to the hips in the forward move. Garciaparra is rotating with the lower half before the front foot has touched down....the question for you is this. How does it become a ground up mechanic if the rotation is happening while the front foot is in the air? Garciaparra swings with great simplicity....would you agree?

This clip was perfect Tom.

Coach C

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> Hi All
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > There has been a lot of discussion lately on the board regarding whether body rotation is generated from the ground or starts in the middle at the hips. Some say they initiate rotation with the legs as the heel lowers, others say they start with the hips with little coming from the legs. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > It may be interesting to discuss if it really matters. – Assume both theories generate the same rate of shoulder rotation. In that case, what differences to the swing plane or bat speed would the different theories produce?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I will be traveling to Oregon the next few days. Therefore, my opinion on the subject will be delayed until Friday or Saturday. Also, it might be longer between board updates. 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Jack Mankin  
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > This is the essence of all great swing/throwing mechanics in my opinion Jack.  THT/BHT/Scap-load,inward turn, etc cannot be done effectively unless the middle of the body is king.  It's a concept that I find very difficult to explain in words, but can easily show in demonstration.  I believe Tom has said, "Arm action is king" and there may be some truth to that, but for me my success in teaching has come from starting with the middle of the body.  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The baseline of all good swings is to start at 50/50 with the weight and then stride to 50/50.  I’m reminded of the typical T-ball player (5 to 6 yrs old) that is asked to hit the ball hard.  Typically they counter-rotate the shoulders/hips and bat (thereby loading the weight on the back leg) only to rotate the entire body through on the hit through the ball.  It’s the baseline for a swing that takes too much time, creates lunging and the incorrect usage of the hands, shoulders and hips.  The true issue here is counter rotation.  In as many as 98 percent of the swings I see below the Major League Level, most counter rotate, either the legs, hips, shoulders, arms or hands.  This is death to a hitter in my mind and something I talk about to anyone that will listen.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > In order not to counter rotate, the legs, hips, shoulders, arms and hands must have a new understanding of what needs to take place.  For many reasons really, but ideally for the benefit of time and a more efficient energy transfer.  I’m reminded of a phrase “Eddie Merrins” (famous golf teacher) once said, “most people get lost in the back swing.”  I wish I would have invented that phrase, but adding to it I would say, “There is only a forward swing”.  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The inward turn is one of the most misunderstood phrases I’ve had the pleasure of hearing.  It is not a necessary component of a good swing, but when done correctly can certainly benefit the player.  Let’s put it this way…….it should not be in the “Hitting 101” material.  It’s for the more advanced player, who understands how to cock/turn the hips correctly.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > To your point in the original post as to the role of the legs.  Any swing that would have the legs initiating the turn and having the hips follow (get in line, so to speak) is a swing that is counter rotating.  A swing that leads with the pelvic region, making essentially a ¼ turn to the ball during the stride is the proper lower half movement and sets the table for the shoulders to swing through the ball as you describe.  I’m sure we will go into much more detail on this as the discussion progresses, but the best I can say at this point is that hitting is much simpler than we think.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > One move to the ball is the baseline…..everything else I see is just a longer one move.  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Coach C    
> > > > > > 
> > > > > Go to www.teachersbilliards.com. You'll find a swing that starts in the center.
> > > > 
> > > > Coach C,
> > > > 
> > > > What don't you like 'going backwards'...the hands, shoulders, hips or all three? Are you suggesting starting square to the plate or in the prelaunch position (weight 40/60, hips cocked, hands hidden from pitcher)? - Tom Waz
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > Great question Tom.....here is my answer.  Going backwards is generally considered counter-rotating.  Now having said that, there are many hitters that load their weight on to the back-side before the stride, but key to a MLB swing is how they unload the weight in these swings.  As I said in an earlier post the pelvic action must be king and if the hitter who loads back comes out of it with the legs turning the hips, then the hips joints will not cock correctly.  A good indication is to watch the back knee during the swing......especially prior to moving to the ball.  There should be no lateral sway of that knee....in fact it should be executing it's own little swing by way of the same pelvis that is turning the front leg on the forward move to the ball.  Essentially the back leg is also responding to the pelvis.  As you have I'm sure, I too have watched many a big league swing and without a doubt a picture is worth a million words.  To that end....there have been a few players who have simplified the move over the years that I think should be the baseline model for all the other swings....they are Molitor, Garciaparra and McGwire in his later years.  These hitter have no backward move to the ball at all.  When you watch their swings you should only see a forward turn through the ball.  All three are Hall of Famers in my mind and for the kids I like to point out the simplicity of there actions.  There is no wasted movement and the swing looks simple.  As for the hands and arms they should not be asked to move back.  As I like to say, "where they start the swing starts".  Again the emphasis is to not turn away from the ball at any point.  
> > > 
> > > As the student progresses he may then experiment with a longer swing, but again it's just a longer one move to the ball.  (ie. Edgar Martinez, Juan Gonzales or for heavens sake....Julio Franco.  They all employ the same pelvic action, but with different weight transfers through the stroke.  To me this is where Jack's description of THT has meaning, but not before lower body action.  I think Jack's description of THT may have value if the pulling back of the top hand takes place in the forward move to the ball.  Most would mess that up and do it first in the swing.    
> > > 
> > > As I say Tom, going back is a phrase that is totally misunderstood by many and so I consider it a bad phrase.  I find it more comfortable to tell the hitter start at 50/50 and don't go forward to early.  When I say go forward it doesn't mean coming out of 50/50 as most people would think.  The swing happens between the legs, not on top of them (a huge concept to understand in my opinion).
> > > 
> > > I'm not sure I answered you clearly, but my hitters start at 50/50, hands wherever they want.  For me I'm comfortable with them at the back arm pit.....much like Berkmann.  It keeps my hands loose, however I could hold them anywhere with little problem.  The issue is not the set-up, it's the execution of the proper swing,  all the little pieces take care of themselves.
> > > 
> > > I'd be glad to explain more to you if have more questions.  I will not speak in scientific terms, because I'm just not that smart.
> > > 
> > > One last thought....you put 100 kids on the batspeed indicator and about 100 would swing with their arms and legs for that speed.  This is not right in my opinion and why I hate those things so much.  Understand batspeed is crucial, but it must be done the right way.....effortlessly!!!!!!!!  As it is done in golf!!!
> > > 
> > > Coach C  
> > 
> > Coach C,
> > 
> > I don't follow MLB very much but did go to http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/swings.html to look at Garciaparra's swing. I don't know how old this video clip is or if this is his normal swing but in a frame by frame it is clear (to me anyway) that there is SOME backward rotation of the shoulders (his hands disappear from view and his back elbow moves away from the plate) I can't discern any hip movement although his front knee does flex inward/upward somewhat. He does appear very balanced throughout the swing and there doesn't appear to be much, if any, work being done by the back leg supporting your view that the turn is initiated in the midsection. I guess what I'm asking is "is that small amount of inward turn, hip flex, knee cock or whatever you want to call it necessary and/or beneficial?" p.s. thanks for always answering my questions. - Tom Waz
> > 
> 
> Tom,
> 
> No problem this is a great clip.  Counter rotation would have him taking the back knee back with the shoulders, but in this case the back knee has retained it's flex and his inward turn is taking place in the forward move.  The lead hip (as it goes forward) is leading as the shoulders are coiling back (excellent sequencing).  What you  see is the leg turning, but what you can't see is the front foot responding to the turn of the pelvis.  His front leg is turning because the hips are turning.  He is loading as he is moving to the ball.  This is a proper load and not what I see in a ton of swings.
> 
> To my point....if you tell someone to rotate....99% of kids are going to load while staying back, thus their forward move has no load at all......it becomes an arm swing that drags.  The body can not load properly unless it is preceeded by the forward move to balance.
> 
> As for the back leg...it is cocking during the forward move, thus it already has responded to the hips....it just doesn't turn until later.  The back hip cocking is a back leg that is responding to the hips in the forward move.  Garciaparra is rotating with the lower half before the front foot has touched down....the question for you is this.  How does it become a ground up mechanic if the rotation is happening while the front foot is in the air?  Garciaparra swings with great simplicity....would you agree?    
> 
> This clip was perfect Tom.
> 
> Coach C

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