Posted by: Shawn () on Thu Aug 5 09:29:20 2004

>>> What studies have concluded that top hand acts as a rotational point later in the swing?
>
> View the clip I posted, the top hand is acting as a rotational point very early in the swing. Anytime we rotate the top hand wants to turn. I can show this in amutuers, where the top hand turning doesn't result in the best swing because of poor rotation.
>
> You say that the forces at work are not natural. People can have good lowerbody rotation and poor transfer mechanics. Just because someone turns the body parts, doesn't mean they have good rotation. There has to be a good connection throughout the body that transfers
> all the energy to the arms. If people have poor transfer mechanics, my first guess is they are not allowing the body to swing the bat. There are some 'ifs' whenever we take about the energies and transfer to the bathead.
>
> Let me say this, In my swing I don't think about the transfer mechanics and it's not to bad for someone who doesn't swing all to often. The transfer mechanics resemble those of a good hitter, Bonds, Alex, Tejada. I can see where I can improve with my hands drifting upwards a little, but the swing is good.
>
> There are no studies that have concluded what the rotational points are in the swing. It doesn't take any special studies to see the elbow/tophand relationship to rotation. The other rotational point is the bottom hand and lead shoulder. The arms rotational point is the mass (hips/shoulders) and the front knee (or front foot). The arms follow these rotational points.
>
> Again, if you just look at the clip I posted and watch the relationship between rotation and the top hand (bathead), you will see the top hand acting (and elbow) acting as a rotational point in the swing.
>
> I'm not making this stuff up. You can either see it or choose not to see it. <<<
>
> Hi Shawn
>
> You stated, “View the clip I posted, the top hand is acting as a rotational point very early in the swing.” – The closer a vector gets to the point of rotation, the lower it’s angular velocity become. When you state, “the top hand is acting as a rotational point”, this means bottom-hand has greater angular velocity around that point. In other words, the bottom-hand would be the most active hand. I see this occurring only in the frames just before the bat becomes perpendicular to the path of the incoming ball. From that point to contact, the top-hand is the most active hand – not the point of rotation.
>
> I think we argee that the top-hand is most active during initiation.
>
> >>> What studies have concluded that top hand acts as a rotational point later in the swing? <<< -- Below is a post concerning that study.
>
> Jack Mankin
> ##
> Re: THT and BHT Clarification
> Posted by: Jack Mankin (mrbatspeed@aol.com on Mon May 17 18:33:09 2004
>
> >>> Jack,
>
> You have introduced the terms THT and BHT to describe "the most active hand at each point of the swing". You also note "in a good swing, pressure sensor pads on the bat handle indicate the hands are exerting a fairly even force".
>
> I have studied these statements, and can reach only one conclusion: Your most active hand is merely that which APPEARS most active FROM AN OVERHEAD SHOT (italics intended).
>
> Since the CHP is in a plane which is not perpendicular to the camera sight line, the hand which appears more active is always closer to the camera. Initially, top hand (higher) appears to circle around bottom hand. Finally, near contact, bottom hand (higher) appears to circle around top hand.
>
> THT and BHT are visual cues to relate bodily action in an overhead shot perspective. They indicate nothing of hand force dominance - merely that hands are always in a push/pull relationship.
>
> Is this observation correct?
>
> Thanks,
> Mike. <<<
>
> Hi Mike
>
> You stated, “I have studied these statements, and can reach only one conclusion: Your most active hand is merely that which APPEARS most active FROM AN OVERHEAD SHOT.” – First of all, we can safely say that the entire length of the bat (knob to the bat-head) is undergoing the same rate of angular displacement. Therefore, throughout the swing, each hand (on the bat) must also have the same rate of displacement as the bat.
>
> However, even though the knob and bat-head have the same rate of displacement, the bat-head is obviously moving at a great angular velocity. This is because the bat-head is farther from the axis the bat is rotating about. Likewise, the angular velocity of each hand will depend of the point of rotation (axis) of the bat. When the axis of rotation is between the hands, the angular velocity of each hand would be the same. Therefore, your observation is true for most of the swing where the axis is more or less between the hands.
>
> Note to all readers: There are four main axis of rotation in swing mechanics. The two we are concerned with in this discussion is the stationary axis the body rotates around and the axis at the hand-path where the bat rotates round. We are discussing the angular velocity of the hands around the hand-path axis.
>
> As I stated earlier, the angular velocity of the top and bottom hand will be about equal when the axis is between the hands. However, there are two points in rotational transfer mechanics (at initiation and at the “hook” in the hand-path) where the axis is at (or closer to) the top or the bottom hand.
>
> At initiation, the bottom-hand remains fairly stationary at the back-shoulder and serves mainly as a pivot point as the top-hand pulls the bat-head in an arc back toward the catcher. In this case, the axis of rotation is closer to the bottom-hand or knob. Therefore, the angular velocity of the top-hand is greater than the bottom-hand.
>
> Just the opposite is true at the hook in the hand-hath. Although the hand-path is moving, the slower moving top-hand is now serving more as the pivot point for the lead-shoulder to pull the bottom-hand around (BHT). In this case, the axis of rotation is closer to the top-hand.
>
> While doing swing research with a Motion Studies Computer System, we placed motion sensors on each joint of the body, on each hand and on the knob and bat-head. We got both angular displacement rates and angular velocities for each sensor anywhere in the swing. We could also study the trajectories (from one or more sensors) from any angle. – My understanding of swing mechanics was much enhanced from this study.
>
> Jack Mankin
> ##
> Hi Zig
>
> I am aware of the hard work and dedication you put into your project and you are to be commended for it. During 1996-7, we ran a similar study at the U of CA (San Bernardino) using their newly acquired Motion Study computer with 4 position motion detectors, pressure sensors and high-speed cameras. Sensor points (looked like miniature Ping-Pong balls) were placed at each joint of the batter and the linear velocity and angular displacement rate for any limb at any point of the swing could be analyzed.
>
>
>

Jack,

Ok are we saying the same thing and seeing it the same way?

I'll say the top hand is more active during initiation. In the clip the bathead moves from slightly pointing toward the pitcher to back toward the catcher with minimal forward movement of the hands (there is forward movement).

The bottom hand must also (leads arm) fight the build up of angular velocity, centrifugal force?. That why we get blisters on the bottom hand if we haven't swung in awhile.

The bat itself wants to swing out of rotation. I heard a term I liked, the bat is prepelled.

I agree the bottom hands serves as a rotational point, but I think the top hand is still active in turning the bat. Even though the tophand is active early, it doesn't complete the entire 90 degree turn until contact. So we would have two forces acting in turning the bat. I think you would agree with what I'm trying to say.

View the Giambi clip today and get back to me. I will post a overhead shot for further discussion on what happens in the swing.

Shawn