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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Top-hand-torque vs extension


Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Tue Oct 31 15:10:05 2000


Re: Re: answer for grc
> > > > > > > > > Posted by: RQL (mailto: on Sat Oct 28 21:25:46 2000) -- for
> > > > > > > > rest of post
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >>>I differ from J ack I think on bottom hand torque is in stead of
> > > > > > > > an oarlock on the top hand mine is going forward as the bottom hand is
> > > > > > > > pulling back from tight shoulder turn and strong wrist action.this
> > > > > > > > seems to me to be what I see happening when I see this tight 90L in
> > > > > > > > back elbow then right before impact you see that 90 headed more like
> > > > > > > > the power V and I think its driving forward making the difference not
> > > > > > > > oarlocking ,But dont unload it to early or the torque is gone<<<
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi All
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > RQL made some interesting points in his post. I think a further
> > > > > > > > discussion on the topic would benefit all.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > For pitches from the middle-in, I recommend mechanics that bring the
> > > > > > > > bat to contact before the back elbow extends and thus the back arm
> > > > > > > > still forms an "L" position. This conclusion is not drawn from my
> > > > > > > > opinion on batting or impressions based on my swing. It is based on
> > > > > > > > data from my research of how energy is transferred in the baseball
> > > > > > > > swing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When I set up the parameters for the research, I determined that for
> > > > > > > > the findings to be valid it would require the collection of a large
> > > > > > > > amount of unbiased data. So I made a sign and hung it over my desk. It
> > > > > > > > read "Have no preconceived theory, report only what you observe." The
> > > > > > > > data gained from charting over 3000 swings was then correlated with
> > > > > > > > players' "slugging percentage" statistics. The results clearly showed
> > > > > > > > that for pitches from the middle-in, the more the back arm was
> > > > > > > > extended past the "L" position, the lower the performance.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The reason I refer to "bottom-hand torque" as the most efficient
> > > > > > > > mechanic for middle-in pitches is because as the bat approaches
> > > > > > > > contact the hands will have slowed down to about 5 mph. So it is not
> > > > > > > > hand quickness that will determine bat speed. It is the amount of
> > > > > > > > torque forces delivered to the hands that will cause the bat-head to
> > > > > > > > accelerate. The lead hand is now in a stronger position to deliver
> > > > > > > > torque force to the bat than the top hand. The lead arm is straight so
> > > > > > > > the pull on the lead hand does not rely on the muscles of the arm but
> > > > > > > > instead from the pulling back of the lead shoulder. The pulling back
> > > > > > > > of the lead shoulder is powered by the large muscle groups of the legs
> > > > > > > > and torso. --- The progression of the back arm and hand ("L" position)
> > > > > > > > as a unit is powered by shoulder rotation. But the extension of the
> > > > > > > > back arm (or elbow) relies on the smaller muscle groups of the arm and
> > > > > > > > thus less powerful. Therefore the back hand serves more as a pivot
> > > > > > > > point for the lead hand to pull the bat around.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Note: When a boxer delivers a power punch, the arm maintains an "L"
> > > > > > > > position while the thrust is delivered mainly by the rotation of the
> > > > > > > > shoulders. When the punch is delivered from the extension of the arm -
> > > > > > > > it becomes more of a jab.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Jack Mankin
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jack-
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rotational batters such as Piazza seem to tighten the arc of the
> > > > > > > > handpath as the swing progresses by leaning the front shoulder back
> > > > > > > > more and/or shortening the lead arm on the very inside pitch.How does
> > > > > > > > this tightening of the arc of the circular handp ...............................................................................................................................i have observed the "L" position in the back arm of major leaguers, although the the vertical part of the "L" is not quite as "vertical" as it is in the "lag position" (the half way point in the swing where the bat is nearly parallel with the ground)......and of course as you said , jack, this point at contact is well short (to be exact, about 60 degrees short) of full extension of the front arm.....i also agree with the boxer punch analogy....anyone who understands that analogy should also be able to understand the circular hand path (and can you imagine a boxer taking a linear hand path????!!!)........now, your statement "The lead hand is now in a stronger position to deliver
> > > > > > > > torque force to the bat than the top hand. The lead arm is straight so
> > > > > > > > the pull on the lead hand does not rely on the muscles of the arm but
> > > > > > > > instead from the pulling back of the lead shoulder. The pulling back
> > > > > > > > of the lead shoulder is powered by the large muscle groups of the legs
> > > > > > > > and torso. --- The progression of the back arm and hand ("L" position)
> > > > > > > > as a unit is powered by shoulder rotation. But the extension of the
> > > > > > > > back arm (or elbow) relies on the smaller muscle groups of the arm and
> > > > > > > > thus less powerful. Therefore the back hand serves more as a pivot
> > > > > > > > point for the lead hand to pull the bat around.".......well......i hope you don't kick me off your site for saying this, but......subtract the scientific reasoning in your statement and you are saying exactly what CHARLEY LAU said in his justification for releasing the top hand!!!!!.....ever so respectfully & with the hope that you will allow me to make posts at this site, grc.....
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The boxer analogy is a good one. The jab is a linear punch while the hook and uppercut are rotational. The jab is more accurate while the others are more powerful. Different techniques for different tasks.
> > > > > > grc - Lau made a big case for letting to of the top hand to add extension. He also restricted the hip turn to stay linear so the top hand couldn't move as far forward anyway. However, extending the bottom hand and generating batspeed out to the end of the swing isn't very useful if the ball is already gone from the bat. And from my memory, Lau didn't focus on generating batspeed PRIOR to contact. ..:MY intent is merely to understand better what is really happening and my eyes simply show me that the back elbow seems to be coming out of the L maybe 2 frames before contact.I'm looking at film on setpro as well as tape of other professionals in the series ,playoffs and other games.Now I'm not saying that there in full extension at contact but it often looks like it is coming out of the L.My other thoughts on this are:1I thought the kinetic chain said that the momentum traveled from the shoulders through the arms and hands and out to the bat,so your not just using the wrists to swing the bat.I think the momentum of the back shoulder is transfering the power through that top arm to the bat.2I'm not saying that the top hand is the main force driving torque.I believe that the rotation of the front shoulder is going through the bottom hand and torquing the bat,but at the same time the back shoulder is driving forward delivering force through the top hand to the bat and as the force propels the barrel past perpendicular of the ball it is bringing the back elbow out of true L.Here is an idea if I can express it well.Jack shows torque with 2 hands going in opposite directions ,then says you either hold the top like an oarlock and just use the bottom hand to torque from rotation ,or keep bottom still and push tophand,this is as I understood the 2nd tape.Now if you grab a bat and hold it vertical in front of you as jack did in the tape and hold one still and torque with the other you will get torque but if you go in opposite directions with both hands you seem to gain far more torque and speed.So why not use both in opposite directions powered by both shoulders going in opp. directions. Just as I feel the importance of the rear hip rotating forward as the lead hip is driving back against the front leg.I'm not saying your wrong Jack just looking for an explanation that makes sense to what I see in slo mo and feel within my own body........................................................................................................................................"Lau made a big case for letting to of the top hand to add extension. He also restricted the hip turn to stay linear so the top hand couldn't move as far forward anyway. "....i agree on both counts.....i just thought it was odd that lau & jack seem to have (had)the same theory regarding the use of the bottom arm, albeit for different reasons....i also find it odd that conventional wisdom is that the top arm finishes where the bottom arm left off, which is quite the reverse of what jack is saying....respectfully, grc.....
> > >
> > > grc - I agree, it is ironic that 'Mr. Rotation' and 'Mr. Linear' 'agree' on that one aspect of the top hand, and yet the logic is completely different. Go figure...
> > > RQL - I see the same thing you do concerning the top hand at or near contact. You make a very good point.
> > > Consider this. If the top hand is simply used as an oar lock, it will still be driving forward, due to its connection to the back shoulder turning forward. It is not still, it is just potentially still in relation to the plane of the shoulders.
> > > However, I've seen a lot of clips where the top hand comes forward from the plane of the shoulders. The question in my mind is that this movement starts very close to contact. Is it adding anything positive at contact or is it just following the momentum of the bathead as it continues along its path after contact. I'm inclined to agree with you that the starting push/punch of the top hand is just before contact. That way, it adds torque, as you noted, and yet avoids getting significantly extended at contact.
> > > This idea seems 'more rotational' if anything..>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>now i'm losing track of who is suggesting the top hand as being used as an "oarlock"...is it jack, rql, or both of these gentlemen?.......in any event, it seems to me that it would be the bottom hand that is being used as an oarlock, not the top hand, since it is the top hand that is closest to the point of contact.......imagine yourself using a 6-foot hoe to chop some weeds....it is the bottom hand thathelps stabilize the hoe and the top hand is providing the final thrust....and if the hands slow down to the previously-cited 5 mph (and i don't question that they do), i fail to see how the bottom arm provides any contribution to the swing when nearing contact.....i wish SteveT were still around....i'm sure he could put my view in a scientific perspective.....jack, with all due respect, i see a problem with your bottom hand torque model......either it is simply (1) flat-out wrong (2) it is not being articulated very well, or (3) i'm too dense to understand it.....respectfully, grc..... >>>I never read Lau's book but somewhere I got the idea of his front arm extension as a pushing motion out towards the pitcher often with the bat perpendicular to the ball,therefore release of top hand is a must or the back arm if still holding on to bat will begin to torque it at full extension and make the barrel turn though little torque is left.I have used this idea and seen it used by M.L. hitters on occasion but it was usually in a situation where we were fooled by offspeed pitch and used this as an adjustment on a pitch middle away.I could keep the barrel traveling longer in a perpendicular path at the ballwaiting longer for the off speed to finally arrive.If my top hand stays on it the barrel comes around and I miss it or it is off the end.At most a liner into outfield for soft basehit but better than a ground out 2 second and not much batspeed from extension.Now the Extension I see in Jack's idea is more pulling back with the shoulder ,not pushing,but it has to extend some as the hands come around and go to the ball.Both say extend but extend by opp. forces push/pull and the arm is extending in different directions.GRC,whenever one of those hands begin to try and stop the energy that is traveling through them from the shoulders I believe you are cutting off the power of the swing and why I think[ bottom hand torque] is so important but not from the bottom hand alone but from both right before impact.This was major in my quest to learn to pull the ball in the air.Now from Jack I have learned it wasnt from powerful forearms and wrists but the rotation of the shoulders, however I have a theory that maybe the powerful forearms and hands are necessary to [control] the bat while all that force is traveling through them.Just too many have talked about strong hands to be completely wrong maybe just the reason for strong hands was off a bit.RQL

I wonder how/if this speculation fits with Jack's data:

I tend to think of the swing more in terms of how the bat moves through space.As Jack says somewhere in his materials,the bat doesn't know who's swinging it.How it swings is going to be the result of how forces are applied.The main forces are transmission of rotational energy from the turning upper torso transmitted via a circular handpath and torque.The hands may be able to control when and where contact is made by when they torque the bat to cause the back elbow to extend out of the "L" position.When this happens,the inertia of the bat increases greatly as it swings out.To conserve inertia of the system,the shoulder turn/handturn greatly slows while the bathead releases.

On the middle/in pitch,batspeed is mainly from maintaining the bottom hand in an arc and contact happens before the "L" comes out much.This may be because of the resulting plate coverage that gets the sweetspot to the inside location.(This would not be the very inside location requiring the Piazza type adjustment).

On the outside pitch,good contact results from less shoulder turn and more "L" out of the elbow which puts the sweetspot at the outside location.In this case top hand torque is more a factor.The bottomhand maintains the arc,but the bat gets out sooner so more energy comes from the top hand torque and less from maintaining the bottom hand in an arc as the shoulders turn.

Theoretically with adequate arm/hand strength you could control when the bat head releases by applying torque to release the club at the right time.The plane the bat is turning in would have been set at launch.This adjustment would control the timing and position of the contact point within this plane(where batspeed maxes out and swing radius at contact).

This may be froggy science and not match the data,so feel free to correct.


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