Posted by: Hitter () on Sun Oct 31 17:00:33 2004

Interesting stuff guys but still unanswered responses on identifying specifics in THT.
> > > Yeah there is a lot of questions here but that is only because many questions still remain on THT that none of you have yet to definetively answer.
> > >
> > > This response from Bert in my reference to TV announcers discussing Bellhorn’s improved swing:
> > >
> > > “And don't talk about the TV commentators not mentioning tht. These commentators are from the ‘old school’ (linear), they played in another era before Jack came along.”
> > >
> > > Bert- the announcers were sharing the feedback they received from and were giving credit to, the Red Sox hitting coach who is from “TODAY’S” era. That coach didn’t mention THT in helping Bellhorn with creating more power in his swing? That coach of the “current” 2004 World Champs only stated he taught Bellhorn to bring his hands back (load up) which as I REPEAT…any player can do without necessarily applying THT. You nor anyone else on this site can argue that the act/movement of bringing the hands back “can be” accomplished by means other than THT. So the question remains?
> > > What do you, Marty, The Pro Scout or any poster “see” that definitively tells you it is absolutely THT being applied instead of another absolute action?
> > >
> > > From Marty:
> > > “My coach says ‘good top hand torque stops good pitching’.” Please have your coach come on board and explain how THT helps a hitter “outsmart” a pitcher? THT may improve the power of a swing via increased batspeed, but THT in and of itself, does NOT beat better, smarter pitching (period). Proof of that is we know even the poster boys you mention on this site for THT strike out. If a hitter applied absolute THT and still missed the pitch ...why did that happen? Pssst...they got fooled/outsmarted by the pitcher. It had nothing to do with THT.
> > >
> > > From Coach Wills:
> > > “This is a settled issue, at least in my neck of the woods. I don't know who Teacherman or his credentials but in the league I coach in, rotational mechanics such as tht & chp rule. Teacherman, come out to Waco sometime and we'll give you a good demonstration of top hand torque.”
> > >
> > > Coach Wills, forget the demo, tell me what you “see” that absolutely proves “hands coming back and hands staying back” is ONLY from THT being applied and NOT some other action that can demo the same thing? If you can’t come back and state your case then ”nothing is settled on THT”. Rotational mechanics are settled as the best mechanics for a swing and you should have stopped there.
> > >
> > > Ralph- do your Pro MLB teams/coaches specifically ask that you look for prospects demonstrating THT or do they simply stress the importance of batspeed and rotational mechanics.
> > > Because you can “see” CHP, and proper rotational mechanics and NOT know it is being applied by THT. Yes, we have “heard” from you as a pro scout but you have not demonstrated as a Pro Scout how you “see” THT is being applied by your prospects? You believing increased batspeed is generated via THT/BHT is your prerogative. Nobody owes you or Jack an apology for their prerogative. You didn’t convince me via your response that it is an absolute you can report on, only that you believe THT is the cause of great batspeed. Maybe you can copy & paste to this site some of your written scout evals to show us where you substantiate and evaluate that THT is being applied by one of your prospects. Can your eval be fool proof to ensure what you believe isn’t really some other action other than THT?
> > >
> > > Hey guys, if THT is that well know in MLB coaching circles why aren't we lay folks involved in baseball hearing about it except on this site? Why the hush hush? Why wouldn't announcers and Hitting coaches mention it if it out there all over the profession?
> > >
> > > Again, name one, two, ANY MLB Hitting instructors (NOT SCOUTS who believe in it but have yet to define how they see it either) but tell me/us the ACTUAL Pro MLB coaches who are teaching and using the phrase THT and its principles to support your stances. If and when you name these MLB coaches that are telling their scouts to “look for THT” prospects, please have them also provide “their” definitive to demonstrate they “see” THT being applied. Let them answer for me the absolutes they “see” to endorse THT is the mechanic, and, that it is not some other action that separates the top half from bottom half and yes, the great hitters from the average hitters.
> > >
> > > If any of you agree it is more “feel than see” then how can you come on this site and state so emphatically that Pujols, Rolen and apparently the entire Cardinal team either forgot or failed to use THT? Were you "feeling" their swings?
> > >
> > > Beating a dead horse? Broken record?
> > > Maybe but...You can pull up any number of post on this site where Jack and or one of you can pinpoint a proper mechanic or flaw we can “see”. I.E. elbow in the slot, palms up/down on contact, flexion/extension of arms legs, front side firm up, heel drop etc.. These are all movements we can “see” and thus draw a conclusion from. None of you seem to be able to verbally do the same with THT. Just saying the hands are coming back does not prove THT is the cause. Yes, it can be one way to bring the top half back but is it the ONLY way? Yes or No?
> > >
> > > When you can finally provide a visual we can see with THT to prove it is the only way then and only then will all of you THT proponents, be able to move away from this argument and “conclusively” promote THT. We will then all be able to say “see it...there it is...right there!”
> > >
> > > Until then I find it ridiculous to ask and expect an apology just because someone else doesn't believe in the same theory that you do.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Jim, I won't speak for the other scouts, but I, as a scout and hitting instructor for an American League team can speak for myself and the organization I represent. It's quite simple: we look for hitters with power and we view rotational mechanics such as top hand torque and the circular hand path as the key components of rotational mechanics.
> > I will not debate the pros and cons (if any "cons" exist) of these principles because I work for my organization, not for you. Now, if you ever get signed by my organization and our paths cross, certainly I will do my job to provide you with quality instruction on how to execute rotational principles.
> > The question may arise as to why a scout would even visit an internet site. Again, speaking for myself only, I encounter many hitters who have potential. They have survived throughout high school and college on linear mechanics. My job is to prepare them for the Major Leagues (this is where top hand torque, bottom hand torque and circular hand path come in).Part of me understanding where these misguided hitters acquired these hitting deficiencies involves me needing to research the sources of these misguided principles (throw hands to ball, knob to ball, fence drill and other linear notions). Of course,some of these sources happen to be on the internet.
> > My suggestion to you is that if your agenda is to seek "truth" the direction of the future of pro hitters is top hand torque, circular hand path, etc. Of course, is your agenda is to defend linear principles & want to pick a fight with a "pro-rotationist", I don't get paid by you or anyone else to do that, I get paid to find, sign and instruct prospects.
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> What am I missing here? Where in Jim's post (I don't know Jim) is there ANY mention of linear mechanics, or inference that it is a preferable means to hit?
>
> And anyone who doesn't think Teacherman is a rotational mechanics advocate is NOT paying attention.
>
> As I read Jim's post, it seems clear to me that the question is isolated to the application of THT as a principle of rotational mechanics. I agree that youth instruction is largely linear, I think a significant percentage of HS and College players have a linear bent to their swings. Even true in the minors. MLB is almost exclusively rotational mechanics and CHP. That alone would seem to settle the big question pretty eloquently. Natural selection works.
>
>
> But that doesn't mean that there isn't variation within the "rotational" camp. Someone like McGwire set up a long way from the plate, and treated most pitches as middle/out. Bonds "bellies up," and treats all pitches as middle/in. Probably the two extremes in MLB - most are somewhere in-between.
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> I think it would be great to have a non-emotional discussion on the THT question. I know I would learn from that. Emotions run pretty high, and it may not be possible, but I'd sure like to attempt it, because I'm trying to learn here. (BTW, I am NOT a member at Setpro. I AM involved at Hitting-Mechanics as a moderator. I am, however, apolitical. I just want to understand how to hit, and how to teach hitting. I have been positively influenced by Jack, and by Batspeed. I would post in this forum far more often if it were real-time. While I understand what caused it not to be, I find it a cumbersome basis to learn and exchange ideas. I do spend some time every week or so and review a larger segment of material at once.)
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> I DEFINITELY recognize the intellectual property and differentiation Jack has built around THT. And I respect that. I respect the rights of others to do the same thing. Since I am NOT a lemming, it occurs to me that good ideas / concepts can come from more than one source. And like many in my position (volunteer coach w/ a passion for hitting), I'm trying to UNDERSTAND how the swing really works, not just accept how someone (any ONE person) tells me it works. So please bear with me.
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> Here are a couple of things I don't understand:
>
> 1) Why anyone would confuse THT and scap loading, unless the point is simply obfuscaption. Scap loading - as indicated in the name - is a LOADING process. THT is an UNloading process. Torque is something you apply to swing, not to prepare to swing.
>
> In and of themselves, this does not make either right or wrong. It DOES make them different.
>
> 2) How it can be conclusively demonstrated that body adjustment to get on plane as the shoulders rotate can not attain - at least in SOME cases - the position often attributed as an EXCLUSIVE result of THT.
>
> I do not question in the slightest the position of the body, arms, bat as elite hitters slot the elbow and attain "connection." It looks virtually the same in every top hitter. But I have a lot of clips where I personally see no evidence of top hand involvement in attaining the position. It appears to me more a by-product of posture and strong hip/torso/shoulder rotation. Could be my limitation or inability to see, and I freely acknowledge that.
>
> IS the contending that the MLB "connection" position (slotted elbow into CHP) is universally applied and ALWAYS attained with the top hand "torqueing" movement? Because I'm not convinced that IS universal.
>
>
> I guess my question is basically one of cause and effect. I THINK I believe that a hitter can attain the THT position demonstrated by John Elliot on The Final Arc DVD simply as a consequence of "drop and tilt" and shoulder rotation happening as the elbow is slotting.
> Some may attain it with the top hand, but I think others do so as a consequence of rotating and slotting.
>
> Set me straight, please.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott
>
>
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Mr. James,

My agenda is fairly simple and as others have done, you failed to address (and as a scout/instructor no less), how do you know what you are "seeing" that brings the hands back is THT and not another action such as scap loading or a simple back shoulder shrug action?

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How do you know it's not THT causing the actions you describe. If your skeptic on the application of THT and it's priciples, what good would it do to explain it, if you can't see it??

As in the above post, most of the actions you describe will happen naturally if you are applying THT. Mankin has said the forces involved are back toward the catcher and the initial forces applied by the top hand are away from the pitcher and not forward. So if bringing the hands back applies the correct forces to the bat then your on your way. The initial forces acting on the bat in the rotational swing is away from the body and not forward, forwad comes second.

Mankin has explained this many times. Like I said very few understand the rotatoinal swing as Jack does. He identified the rotational forces at work in the swing which he calls transfer mechanics.

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I don't know where you summised I am anti-rotational and a linear proponent. I made it abundantly clear rotation is the Pro way.
Just as it is equally clear that a can view a rotational swing with CHP, hips leading hands etc., minus any THT but with hands being brought back via another action.
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It seems you are caught up in not understanding the forces at work. Again, so be it if bringing the hands back applies the correct forces at/after initiation or scap loading, or just having an elevated rear elbow. Jack has explained the forces at work in great detail on not only THT but how to work with rotation and not against rotation, transfer mechanics.

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Again, you opted to go off on a tangent, deviated away from answering what, as a Pro Scout/instructor "you" look for that "tells you" the hands coming back is directly because of THT and not some other action.
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I don't think anyone is dodging your questions. You just want to call it something different. I don't think you understand the swing as Jack does yet. Maybe that should be your first goal before you try to rename the mechanics involved.