Posted by: ray porco () on Tue Dec 21 16:20:37 2004

> Hi Ray
>
> Whether you try the drill or not is up to you. Nor, do I seek or need your approval of it. The improvement in my students is all the proof I need.
>
> Jack Mankin
>

-----------------------------------------------------------


Jack,

You always seem to twist and convolute the discussion. Always skirt the hard issues.

###Please state your definition of -------, so that we may have a meaningful discussion.###
###I will answer your question, but first, will you clarify this point before we proceed.###
###Please see my prior post to ------, regarding the same topic.###




My post:

*****************************************************
Posted by: ray porco ( on Mon Dec 20 13:08:03 2004

Brian,

Your quotes:

"As to your comment that: "JACK IS HAVING HITTERS HAVE THEIR HANDS SIGNIFICANTLY CLOSER TO THE SHOULDER THAN THE AVERAGE MAJOR LEAGUE HITTER," you are probably right. Most major league hitters are not great hitters. Great hitters use different mechanics than average hitters."

and

"I believe Jack is absolutely correct that the swing mechanics of most great hitters have the thumbs within a few inches of the rear shoulder."


Two of the great hitters that don't have their thumbs within a few inches of the rear shoulder (when they swing) are:
1. Billy Williams
2. Frank Robinson

I wish that NickKio could give us a link again to the overhead shots of those two.

It is my wish, Brian, that you (or Jack) could supply some concrete proof to uphold your beliefs. The two clips (overhead shots of Williams and Robinson, not to mention Rose and Mercer) provide concrete evidence against. Can you refute that??? I'll answer for you - NO, because you can readily see what I see. Side views at YouthSports could not even provide concrete evidence. Why? Because, angled video is deceiving. The main reason that a camera is placed on the finish line at a horse race track. You would have me, and all readers here, subscribe to your beliefs, based on what you both believe is simply obvious (to you, I might add). Well I’m afraid that “obvious” is simply not good enough (at least for me). You are asking us all to believe what is obvious to your mind, not what is obvious to our eyes.

Scientific reporting is based on documented observations, not what a scientist believes is obvious.
Your (and Jack’s) current views caste doubt (for me at least) on Jack’s interpretation of the years of video that Jack analyzed and categorized to reach his conclusions.

I would say that you both, would be well advised to follow Jack’s original mantra:
" Have no preconceived theory, report only what you observe."



ray porco

***********************************************************

was directed to Brian.
Can’t he answer for himself?

These claims by Brian:


“I believe Jack is absolutely correct that the swing mechanics of most great hitters have the thumbs within a few inches of the rear shoulder.”

“As Jack pointed out, the batter in frame #1 of the swing mechanics page most certainly has the thumb closer than 10 inches (which is ALMOST ONE FOOT) from the rear shoulder even without mirrors or a direct visual path,…”



…are the center of the discussion.

Not whether it is an effective cue, or that it directly is responsible for improvement in your students, OR WHETHER I CAN DO IT.

The true discussion is WHERE IS THE PROOF supporting Brian’s claim that “most great hitters have the thumbs within a few inches of the rear shoulder” .

I (actually NickKio’s overhead clips) have supplied proof (no camera angles and direct visual path) that directly contradicts his statement. And I have more.



And as far as your wisecrack, - “Nor, do I seek or need your approval of it."

A very good reason for discussions with me becoming “uncomfortable”.




ray porco