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Re: Re: Re: Critique this swing.

Posted by: tom.guerry (tom.guerry@kp.org) on Sun Jul 10 11:18:14 2005

> The negative move is something I see in all ML hitters.


Bobby Jones would agree with you.

My hypothesis is that the principles of the "2 plane golf swing" are the same as those for the lowerbody/weight shift portion of hitting as Jack describes the swing here.

The 2 planes in question are the body/shoulder plane and the arm plane.

The single plane golf swing is one where the arm plane is kept pretty much on the same plane as the shoulder plane during loading and unloading,avoiding the accentuation of the lifting arm action of the 2 plane swing.While there is a successful use of the single plane method in golf as with Moe Norman and Hogan in the olden days and a number of modern players, for example,the single plane pattern involves too much of a "spinning" type rotation (and a long swing radius with high max batspeed but prone to disconnection/
deceleration) - a swing which is too long/lacking in quickness for hitting (hitting with limited reaction time as in mlb).

Bobby Jones probably gave the overall best description of the 2 plane swing since he used it and it predominated in his era before the "modern" swing of Hogan supported by "modern equipment".

In loading for hitting, the lifting/arm action is more accentuated and the backturn/"counterrotation" of the body is limited to quicken the swing. An essential part of the desired short swing is most importantly a short handpath radius which requires the THT/CHP and BHT motions that Jack has identified.

Jack has not identified much in the way of lower body/weight shift absolutes in his study which I would say is probably because they do not lend themselves as easily to videoanalysis.

I would speculate,however that the principles derived by Jones DO apply which were the result of playing at a high level,studying ALL successful players of the first 60 years of the last entury,studying highspeed video in detail,along with a high level educational
background with emphasis on engineering (Georgia Tech) and communication (Harvard-called english literature in those days).

With these principles in mind,it is enlightening to read BOBBY JONES ON GOLF,remembering that he is describing the 2plane method with a good understanding of how all attributes of the swing affect the turn back as opposed to lifting parts of the load/swing and how they blend.

Jones made a distinction between "weight shift" which usually referred to the movement of the center of the body, and more detailed description about which foot was carrying how much weight at a particular time.

With regard to the center of mass of the body and where his "weight" must go:

Jones,p.22: " I do not believe that it is necessary to shift the weight backward during the backswing; certainly, I know it is not if the player is standing sufficiently behind the ball when he is addressing it. If he insists upon addressing the ball off his right (back) foot, then he may set himself right by means of this backward shift. But he must get his weight behind the stroke if he is going to hit the ball correctly.

"Hitting a golf ball is like hitting anything else in that it cannot be hit hard or efficiently if it is behind the striker. He cannot reach back to get it without sacrificing a world of power. When a good swing starts down, everything ought to move together toward the
ball[positive move]. The left(front) heel should come down, the hips should SHIFT [tom's emphasis] forward, the arms and clubhead should move with the rest. If there is one single part of the mechanism moving in another direction, setting up a counterforce and partially
overcoming the force directed toward the ball, then the stroke will be inefficient, less powerful than it ought to be.

"This should not be hard to understand. No one would attempt to throw a baseball while reared back on his heels or to deliver a right uppercut while stepping away from his foe. Why,then, should he fling his left(front) foot at the water bucket when he tries to hit the golf ball ?"

Regarding how much the feet carry weight,p.25:

"...The preponderance of weight must not be on the right(back) foot [in the stance].There should be an approximately equal division of the burden, but if either foot is to carry more,it should by all means be the left(front) foot. Regardless of what is said by those who like to talk about swaying, it is necessary in order to swing easily and rhythmically [swing needs to start with the turning back NOT the lift regardless of how short the turn back is] that there be an appreciable shift of weight successively back to the right(back) foot [negative move] in taking the club back and forward to the left in striking the ball. This cannot be done if the weight rests too much on the right(back) foot at the start."


Remember,fundamentals are significantly different for the one plane swing.The 2 plane swing is very similar to hitting,but in hitting,while the motion should maintain the same sequence where the turn back/"inward turn" starts before the "arm lift",even though the
turn back ( backswing in shoulder plane) is greatly limited and the lift (arm plane loading) is greatly emphasized.

A KEY difference between the one plane/2 plane is thet the hips/center must shift forward (some) before the hips turn open in the 2 plane swing. Not so in the one plane "spinning" type rotational swing. Note emphasis on "SHIFT" above. Another key difference is how the open stance can shorten a 2 planer without necessarily degrading rotation while the open stance kills the one planer (closed stance goes along with necessary accentuation of
"counterrotation" for 1 planer).

Also see the Golf digest info from Hardy linked in other threads.This,for example shows that in the stance,the spine can be angle backward slightly as seen from the oppo/open view as opposed to vertical in the one plane "spin". This is analagous to "leading with the hips" during the stride. This will help the momentum staging/sending of momentum UP as the 2 planer progresses.

Reading through Jones and Hardy's stuff gives a good idea of how to sort out the attributes of the different patterns which should not be mixed.

Jones and Mankin is a good mix for hitting.


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