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Re: Re: Re: Re: The point of El Grande Experimente

Posted by: Major Dan (markj89@charter.net) on Tue Feb 27 07:17:07 2001

After rereading Paul's latest posts, I'd like to remind myself and anyone listening about the point of the experiment.
> > > > The point is to see if any factor beyond batspeed has any effect on ball exit velocity. The one and two handed swings were intended to show different means of creating a batspeed to see if any other factors are involved in exit velocity.
> > > >
> > > > We have discussed in other threads about how the batspeed was generated, how good the swing is, etc. However these points do not directly affect the numbers. Those numbers say that bat speed and ball exit speed are in direct relationship to each other.
> > > > Actually I am not surprised by that. Newton's laws say that the momentum (mass * velocity) of the two colliding objects determines the result of the collision (I paraphrase loosely).
> > > > There are two variables in the experiment that could be varied and would then shed more light on what we know so far.
> > > > - Vary the ball velocity with speeds > 0, perhaps pitched balls with 10MPH increment increases in speed. This would change the momentum ratios of the bat and ball. I'd like to know if this affects exit velocity of the ball.
> > > > - vary the firmness of the grip on the bat. The study that Paul cites in his 2/15 post used a bat swinging machine. The bat is held tightly in the vise. If this 'grip' were subject to an element of looseness (perhaps foam rappings of the handle with different densities), the collision would be dampened, probably affecting exit velocity.
> > > >
> > > > Altering these two variables in a controlled way would show if there is an effect on ball exit velocity due to the speed of the ball, and what effect the batter's connection to the bat (grip, hand torque, etc.) has to ball exit velocity.
> > > >
> > > > I think without these, we are left with a less than complete picture. But we already know an important piece of information even at this point - bat speed and ball exit velocity are directly related.
> > > >
> > > > Question for Paul - if bottom hand torque or top hand torque or an aggresive step toward the pitcher or pulling the knob forward or any other method increased or decreases batspeed prior to bat-ball contact, wouldn't the ball exit at a speed that is related to the bat's speed?
> > > > I don't see how the experiment says anything about any particular technique, just the batspeed the swing generates.
> > >
> > > major dan,
> > >
> > > please don't get mad but i disagree with your assertion of the point of the experiment.
> > >
> > > paul corrected a response by you to a post by me at batspeed on the topic of "extension and bottom hand torque". he named the topic " 'VOODOO' physics" and made the remark "I guess all the "science types" have moved to batpeed".
> > >
> > > "one handed vs. two handed swing" was born on 12/17/2000 at 8:03 AM at setpro in a post by paul. the point wasn't to see if any factor beyond batspeed has any effect on ball exit velocity. the point was to disprove torque theory. the point that TORQUE DOES NOT INCREASE BATSPEED.
> > >
> > > you see major dan, if paul could show that he could swing as fast one handed as he could two handed, and if you need two hands to accomplish torque, then.......
> > >
> > > here's a copy of his post - read for yourself"
> > >
> > > Did a quick test last night.
> > > 10 swings using two hands, 78 MPH average.
> > > 10 swings using one hand, 73 MPH average.
> > > I have done this test before with similar results.
> > > And I know I can swing faster with one hand if I practiced it as much as I have two handed.
> > > How does the above data "fit" into the top hand/bottom hand torque "theory"?
> > >
> > > Have fun!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > major dan, why do you think the word theory in the next to last sentence is in quotes?
> > >
> > > major dan, why do you think paul didn't respond to my "take away flail" mini-experiment? most of the speed of a one handed swing is built up in the (as paul calls it) "flail" part. that's why i proposed to take the flail part of the swing away and see if you could create as much batspeed one handed as you could two during what he calls the "whip" part. you can't. he can't either.
> > >
> > > ray porco
> > > >
> >
> > Ray -
> > I think there are two paths this thing is taking. Paul is excellent at proving discrete points. But by its nature, discrete points are narrowly defined. Even if the THT and BHT issues were raised or even caused this line of thought, El Grande Experimente doesn't prove or disprove that aspect. It does show the predominant effect of batspeed on ball exit velocity.
> > All I'm saying is, lets accept the facts and define how far those facts take us. The other issues will need more proving. And Paul has hinted at his opinion, but has not claimed to have proven anything about the torque stuff. Lets stay tuned to see how this progresses. ..>>If Paul or someone would try the same idea with an 80 mph pitch then we could see how the exit speeds faired and if they stayed constant.I'm sure he has considered this he is usually very thorough.

I'm not going to do any thought experiments or voodoo physics. But I keep wondering about the following:
moment of impact is the sum of the momenta of the ball and the bat. It seems that a ball sitting still provides no 'opposition' to the bat. A thrown ball (80 MPH) would cause a greater head-on collision. But would that slow the bat down, as common sense would suggest, or would it make the ball go farther - players always say it is easier to hit for power against fast pitching. Maybe that's a factor of gearing up, swinging faster.
Or is there some sort of rebound effect in the bat or ball or both that is greater in a collision with more energy? Does more energy in the collision (but in the opposite direction) cancel out or combine?
It just seems like there is anecdotal evidence in both directions. They can't both be right.

By the way, I read in the Boston Globe the other day that Dante Bichette was hitting one handed homeruns in BP (right hand by a righty) during spring training. So Paul's 5 MPH difference in one vs. two handed swings is not unique.
One thing it is starting to show me is that the back side / top hand is the where the power is. I'm not hearing about bottom hand one-handed swings doing anything like that. But can they?
I think I have more questions than answers these days...


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