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Re: Re: Re: Re: Bottom Hand Torque

Posted by: RQL () on Sat May 19 09:11:40 2001

>>> From what I've read, it seems to me that creating good bottom hand torque isn't a whole lot more than a good wrist snap. What do you think? <<<
> > >
> > > Hi John F
> > >
> > > The mechanics of applying bottom-hand-torque to the bat is a very different than the traditional wrist-snap concept. The wrist-snap is part of the whip theory where the batter quickly extends the bat knob first until the arms near full extension. The whip and wrist-snap theory would have the hands and knob of the bat extended while the bat-head remains back. Then the transfer of the batís momentum along with the snapping of the wrist is supposed to accelerate the bat-head to contact.
> > >
> > > John, I think a more careful reading of bottom-hand-torque principles and mechanics will reveal a very different concept from the wrist snapping approach.
> > >
> > > Jack Mankin
> > >
> > > jack....from those i have heard propose the wristsnap, they were referring to the wristsnap as the final part of the swing, not as part of keeping the bat back...that's a new one on me...respectfully, grc....
> grc-
> This stuff does get confusing.It does help to think in terms of underlying principles,and I think Jack has identified the underlying physics principles well.There needs to be a smooth/unbroken buildup and transfer of momentum.This means rotation around a stationary axis,the circular hand path and the smooth application of torque throughout the swing.If you agree with this,then it makes sense to develop your mechanics to harness these principles as efficiently as possible.I like Epstein's approach to teach separation of the upper and lower half.Jack hasn't found any preferred method of stride/weight shift preceding torso rotation.Mike also notes that it is impossible to rotate without lunging or keeping the weight back(impossible to rotate around a stationary axis)unless the hands are kept in a circular path.This starts to get into the transfer mechanics.He controls this handpath when teaching the lower body action by having the bat rest on the back arm.As Jack has shown,the only way to let the momentum flow efficiently up through the body and into the bat is via a circular handpath from initiation to contact(???may be OK to let hands get away from center of rotation prior to contact on away pitch).Any premature extension of hands away from body cuts off rotation around a stationary axis.
> Assuming you have succeeded in rotating around a stationary axis and kept the circular handpath,in addition you have to apply torque with the hands smoothly at the right time while initiating the right swing radius.This initiation move is what Jack describes as "tophand torque at initiation".This sets the subsequent swing trajectory which can not be greatly modified(some room for check swing/bailout swing)thereafter.The smooth application of torque from this point to contact often requires the relaxed top hand grip.Torso turn is powering the swing and torso momentum is transferred to the bat by swinging the bathead out by using the arms to assist in
> torquing the hands as the circular hand path is maintained,or even tightened as on the inside pitch.
> So (my interpretation of) Jack's theory is that you want ongoing torso turn(high powered engine) and efficient transfer mechanics(good transmission/clutch doesn't slip)to make contact at right point in space and time.This would not be compatible with mechanics that would save wrist snap until the end of the swing.Even if not consciously trying to keep the bathead back,this will result in inefficient transfer.Instead you want the feel of "bottom hand torque" at contact which is the feel of the front shoulder pulling the bottom hand back as the back shoulder pushes the top hand forward(torso still rotating) before "releasing" the bathead into extension(usually after contact).This is in my experience a push/pull feel much different from a wrist snap feel.It is a push/pull feel that builds up prior to contact with the loose top hand allowing smooth acceleration of the bat in the plane of shoulder rotation.In the case of the inside pitch,it is bottom hand pull back associated with leaning back to hook the handpath.This is very different from keeping the wrists locked until snapping them at the end.
> In fastpitch,there are many coaches who work backwards from this wrist snap concept to teach a swing based on the pure whipping model Jack has alluded to.They really are interested in keeping the bathead back believing this accentuates batspeed by sequential snapping of shoulders(torso stops)arms and wrists with limited turning of the bat until the top arm has extended.This swings the bat in the downward plane of the arms with early wrist roll.The wrist roll(horrible flaw if you believe the plane of the swing should match the planme of the pitch)is actually encouraged because it counteracts the tendency of the bathead to drop when the hitter continues to turn the torso as the arms extend when trying to hit hard(should stop torso and just armswing for contact).In addition the golf grip is preferred because it promotes a late wrist snap with minimal wobbling of the batpath as the wrists roll-this is the second knuckle lined up/hold tight with both hands as much in the fingers as possible grip.
> Both the golf grip and the late wrist snap interfere with transfer mechanics in the rotational swing.Many in baseball teach the late wrist snap because they think it promotes momentum transfer by better whipping(faulty understanding of underlying principles)but they know that keeping the bathead back is not desirable at least as a swing thought/cue.In fastpitch,many teach it as a way of keeping the bat head back as well.
> Tom,the push/pull you refer to in torque I always felt was what gave me the feel of one big hand.To me if each hand is applying equal pressure pull and push as Epstein has suggested and the bottom of the bottom hand is pulling back and the top of the top hand is driving forward with help from shoulder turn,I felt they both felt as one because each wrist actually moves in the same direction.The top of the bottom hand is going forward just like the top of the top hand,and same for each bottom of each hand.Its the bottom of the bottom and the top of the top hand that move opposite of each other yet flow as one driven by 2 shoulders that turns as one.


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