Posted by: ray porco () on Mon Jul 9 20:44:22 2001

"the 45-degree angle in the position of power is the most efficient angle to get into the correct approach angle to the ball........during the approach to the ball, as the knob gets to the front hip area, the barrel should be about shoulder height.....the angle at this point is flexible, as long as the barrel of the bat is above the hands...........this statement was made by a prominent hitting instructor....what especially intrigued me was the statement "as the knob gets to the front hip area, the barrel should be about shoulder height"......am i missing something here?.....if i look at any 4-to-5-frame clip or picture of any major league hitter, by about the 3rd frame the bat is parrallel to the ground, ready to be released , and the hands (knob) are about half way between the two hips (blastsystem calls this the "lag position")......can anyone think of a major leaguer who , when the knob has already past this halfway point and near the front hip, STILL has the bat shoulder height?.............respectfully, grc.....
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> > > > > > > > grc,
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> > > > > > > > what seems very lucid to some, can be ambiguous to others. words (written) must be read, trying very hard to understand the intent of the writer. not meaning to lecture, let me demonstrate.
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> > > > > > > > the "prominent hitting instructor", you referred to, said,"...during the approach to the ball, as the knob gets to the front hip area, the barrel should be about shoulder height..."
> > > > > > > > grc, you said, "can anyone think of a major leaguer who, when the knob has already past this halfway point and near the front hip, STILL has the bat shoulder height?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > grc, you are assuming that you must be past the halfway point to be near the front hip with the knob of the bat. i would tend to agree, but is that what he meant?
> > > > > > > > he said, "...as the knob gets TO the front hip area,..."
> > > > > > > > "TO" can mean:
> > > > > > > > in the direction of
> > > > > > > > toward
> > > > > > > > on the way to
> > > > > > > > en route for
> > > > > > > > just before
> > > > > > > > headed for
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> > > > > > > > can the prominent hitting instructor mean "just before"? perhaps.
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> > > > > > > > continuing:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > you said, "...STILL has the bat shoulder height?"
> > > > > > > > he said, "...the barrel should be about shoulder height..."
> > > > > > > > "...bat..." vs. "...barrel..."
> > > > > > > > big diff. all the bat vs. part of the bat.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > sooooo, the barrel can be "...about..." shoulder height (at least the rear shoulder) just before the knob gets to the front hip area. that's if that's what the prominent hitting instructor meant.
> > > > > > > > have i seen batter's that do this? yes, especially hitter's that, when they coil, keep the bat very close to their head and their hands closer to their body than others. Examples: Mo Vaugh, Bonds, etc.
> > > > > > > > not so much - Griffey, O'Neill, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > in answer to your question, "...can anyone think of a major leaguer who, when the knob has already past this halfway point and near the front hip, STILL has the bat (meaning the entire bat - i interpret) shoulder height?"
> > > > > > > > yes, tony gwynn for one, and musial for another. primarily when your behind in the count and get a ball that's up in the strike zone.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > a note:
> > > > > > > > i was always taught to "stay on top of the ball" (for the first part of the swing, that is). i can still hear my coach say, "keep your hands above the ball, and the barrel of the bat above your hands". do i still advocate this? for the first part of the swing, yes. BUT TO WHAT POINT IN THE SWING? that depends on the pitch.
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> > > > > > > > was i lucid or ambiguous?
> > > > > > > > ray porco
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> > > > > > > ray....thanks for your response....i'll respond point by point......but first, just for the sake of clarity in my defintions, i would like to describe what blastsystem.com refers to as the "lag position"....if nothing else, the lag position is a useful reference point in discussing various phases of hitting.....the lag position: the half way point in the swing where the bat is parrallel to the ground, ready to be released....i have observed that almost all major leaguers, when in the lag position, have their hands (or knob) about 1/2 way between the front and back foot.....also at this point, the hips have generally turned about 80 degrees...not full rotation but close to it......i can show you clip after clip that confirms these observations (hands half way between front/back foot and hips turned about 80 degrees).......now to your response.....(1) the meaning of "to"....i take that to mean when the knob reaches, arrives at....but no matter how you define "to", i think it is clear that he is saying that the bat will not br ready to be released until a point well beyond the point described in the lag position.....in other words,for the conventional major leaguer, from lag position with the knob about 1/2 way between the front/back foot ( or 1/2 way between the front/back hip), the bat is parrallel to the ground and is ready to be released......but HE is saying that even with the knob well past this "half way point" (lag position where the bat is parrallel to the ground)the bat is STILL not parrallel to the ground!!!!.....so if you do not "release" the bat at lag position, and if, even when the knob of the bat is "to", "near", whatever to the front hip with the bat STILL not being parrallel to the ground (so therefore, obviously still not ready to be released), exactly WHEN is he saying bathead SHOULD be released?.....in effect, what he is saying is to ectend your arms straight out to the pitcher with the bat still point to the sky, THEN try to swing the bat!!!!!.......i'm sure that this is not the intended result, but try to follow his instructions and that is what will happen, waiting until hands are over the front foot and then using your wrists to swing the bat..............
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> > > > > > > (2)you said "sooooo, the barrel can be "...about..." shoulder height (at least the rear shoulder) just before the knob gets to the front hip area. that's if that's what the prominent hitting instructor meant.
> > > > > > > > have i seen batter's that do this? yes, especially hitter's that, when they coil, keep the bat very close to their head and their hands closer to their body than others. Examples: Mo Vaugh, Bonds, etc.".....ray.....we're talking about two different things here.....what you are describing is something many hitters do in their stride and in the FIRST HALF OF THE SWING....i have pictures and clips of vaughn and bonds, and at lag position they look just like any other major leaguer, bat parrallel to the ground and knob about 1/2 way between the 2 hips.......but what hudgens is describing is the bat being vertical way past this half way point......it boils down to: when do you release the bathead (a) when hands/knob are about half way between the hips or (b) when the arms are stretched out as far as they can be stretched out and the hands are ober the front foot?....................(3) gwynn and musial......i haven't seen clips of musial, but i have seen gwynn hit this way, although not to the extreme degree described by hudgens..............................................................
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> > > > > > > SUMMARY............if you get a bat & do exactly what hudgens is saying, you will see for yourself that the result will be releasing the bathead near the front foot rather than from the half way point between the front and back foot....this will result in much less hip rotation and will require more wrist action.......................respectfully, grc.......
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> > > > > > grc,
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> > > > > > i agree that what you describe as the "lag position" could be/already is a useful reference point in discussing various phases of hitting.
> > > > > > but, when the bat is parallel to the ground, we are talking about a SPLIT second. we can't use terms like "... ABOUT 1/2 way between the front and back foot...", "...hips have GENERALLY turned...", "...not full rotation but CLOSE TO IT...".
> > > > > > further, to sucessfully demonstrate this position, the camera angle must be at at a perfect 90 degree angle to the batter. a right angle must be drawn from the knob of the bat to the ground, and the distance measured from each foot to the bi-section point.
> > > > > > further, pitches that are high or low, would effect the point in the swing when the bat becomes parallel.
> > > > > > further, i too have pictures of vaughn and bonds. "The Louisville Slugger Ultimate Book of Hitting", page 38, frame 18. vaughn with knob of the bat halfway between feet, bat angled (not parallel) to ground, barrel of bat at same height as rear shoulder. and bonds on page 116 (same book), frame 25.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "...but HE is saying that even with the knob well past this "half way point" (lag position where the bat is parrallel to the ground) the bat is STILL, not parrallel to the ground!!!..."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > how can you say this without asking him?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SUMMARY:
> > > > > > check out other batter's frame by frame in the same book. this lag position is very hard to capture with stills. some batters even have the bat barrel BELOW the hands when the knob is halfway between the feet. you will see what i mean by influencing camera angles and balls that are pitched high and low.
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> > > > > > RECOMMENDATION: ask hudgens.
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> > > > > > ray porco
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> > > > > ray...thanks for the response....i too have the LV book....p198, frame 12, caminiti.....hands about 1/2 between front and back foot, bat parrallell to ground, hips almost rotated.....p 116, frame 25, bonds bat not quite parallel to ground, hands not quite at the half way mark, hips almost rotated.....p 110, frame 8, baines, same thing...p 48, frame 47, o'neil, same thing......p 49, frame 55, eisenrich, same thing........now, we could split hairs about the exact camera angle , the exact moment the picture was taken, etc, but that misses the point........all of these hitters, plus all the countless # of hitters i have seen in video clips, other books, game film, etc show a fairly universal truth: at the halfway point where the bathead is ready to be released, the hands are about halfway between the front/back foot and the hips are almost but not quite fully rotated.......these facts in themselves have great significance but i have already went into that with other posts on other sites.........but the original point was this:dave said "as the knob gets to the front hip area, the barrel should be about shoulder height".....and in all of these pictures, even with the knob half way between the hips, the bat is parallel to the ground....and yet dave says that with the swing a little farther along "the barrel should be about shoulder height"??????.......anyway, ray, thanks for the response......all i wanted to do is to seek other opinions.....now i'll go back to my cage and studee my spelleng........respectfully, grc......
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> > > >
> > > > grc,
> > > >
> > > > i do split hairs (i think splitting hairs is absolutely critical to analyzing a baseball swing). i don't think it misses the point at all.
> > > > demonstration:
> > > > a photo finish between 3 horses at a horserace. a camera positioned exactly on the finish line would correctly determine the winner. however, a camera positioned either right or left of the finish line would favor either the horse on the rail or the horse outside. i would think that someone holding a ticket on one of those three horses would be very concerned where that camera was positioned to be accurate and fair.
> > > > likewise, someone who truly wanted a legitimate analysis of their swing would be right in wanting "to split hairs".
> > > >
> > > > you are making a statement about a "...countless # of hitters..." performing a specific act at a specific point in the swing (which is accomplished in a split second), and not willing to split hairs. you keep talking about the "...halfway point..." in the swing with terms like "...the hands are ABOUT halfway..." and "the hips are ALMOST BUT NOT QUITE FULLY rotated...".
> > > >
> > > > actually hudgens (in the statement that you seem to disagree with) refers to the "knob" not "the hands" getting to the front hip area.
> > > > to demonstrate the need to split hairs, let's take your first example - Louisville Slugger Ultimate Book of Hitting, page 198, frame 12, caminiti. you chose frame 12 and i think frame 11 is a better representation of what hudgens is talking about. the "knob" is clearly closer to being at the halfway point between the front and back foot. i would say (and i don't think i'd get an arguement)that frame 12 (your choice) clearly shows the "knob" favoring the front leg and not the "...halway..." point.
> > > > 1/30th of a second (frame speed, if film was shot at normal speed)separate you and me from agreeing. caminiti's bat is at a 45 degree angle with the barrel at the same height as his rear shoulder and the knob is halfway between his feet in frame 11. TOTALLY different from what is shown in frame 12. and you don't want to split hairs?
> > > >
> > > > last month i was simply amazed at how two people could interpret a still photo differently. me and tom.guerry could not see the same thing (photo of the batter at the top left hand corner of this page).
> > > > without a rigid set of standards used for interpretation, i'm afraid we're pretty screwed on agreeing on anything.
> > > >
> > > > i don't mean to be smart with you, i'm just trying to defend my standards.
> > > > i enjoy reading your "takes" and will continue.
> > > > by the way, i have a question for you. must set it up first. will get back.
> > > >
> > > > ray porco
> > >
> > > >ray......i don't any way whatsoever interpret your post as being smart....to the contrary, i think your post enriches the dialogue.....i gotta run right now but i will study your post in more detail tomorrow and respond ....in the meantime it would be nice if we could pick up some other opinions....respectfully, grc.....
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> > grc,
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> > agree!
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> > ray porco
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> >ray.......i agree that perceptions can differ due to when a 1/30th second frame was shot.....it lends itself to having to interpolate where a bat would be had the shot been taken 1/60th of a second sooner or later......with many of these shots i could argue that if a particular shot had been taken 1/60th of a second sooner, then instead of a frame showing the bat 10 degrees short of being parrallel to the ground but the knob only 40% of the way between front & back foot, it would show bat parrallel to ground & knob 50 % of the way between front & back foot.......that’s why i simply say “about”..........and i have seen numerous clips showing that at lag position, knob is about half way between front & back foot and bat is parrallel to ground............but i have seen very few clips or pictures showing knob being “about” even with front hip and bat still shoulder height......
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> Example....caminiti...frame 11....bat is shoulder height per what we can perhaps assume huggens was referring to.....and without needing to get into interpolation, when shot was taken, etc, it is clear that knob is even with back and not front hip.........frame 12 shows knob even with front hip......clearly bathead has already been released, but at this point where the knob is, huggens would have the bat at shoulder height, as in frame 11.......obviously huggens is having the hitter wait “later” to release the bathead.....and we’re not talking about “later” simply within the context of time.....”later” means waiting until knob is near front hip rather than between front & back hip, and this has a huge effect on the arc of the swing & how much more must the hitter rely on wrist action........i maintain that if you wait until hands are near the front hip to release the bat the distance the bathead actually travels will be somewhat “shorter”, but you will be getting less “hip” and more “wrists” in the swing.................
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> 2 more quick examples......bonds, p116......frame 25 bat is shoulder height, knob clearly at rear, not front hip.....by frame 26, knob is near front hip and bathead has already been released....this is the point whre huggens would still have the bat shoulder height.......................................eisenrich, p49, frame 54...bat shoulder height near REAR, not front hip.....frame 55, bat is exactly parrallel to ground, knob is halfway between front & back foot.....frame 586 knob is near FRONT hip but bathead has been long-since released...............
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> SUMMARY: perceptions can differ depending on when shot was taken..but.........i think there is more than a sufficient amount of evidence to show that major leaguers release bathead halfway between front and back hip, not near front hip....this difference of 1/60th of a second is also a difference of aprox. 16 inches of where “release point” is........but this “release point” makes a difference in how much “hip energy” (for lack of a better term) gets “wasted” (lost) before bathead release begins..............respectfully, grc......


grc,

good answer.

am starting to understand your terminology better. please help further. what do you mean by:

"...bat is shoulder height..."
do you mean the entire bat or just a part, such as the barrel?

"...knob is even with back and not front hip..."
from what view? with the entire hip area, or maybe just where the socket would be located?
also, remember hips are turning as the knob is changing location. on hitting an outside pitch the hips don't open as much as trying to pull the ball. further, some hitters open their hips far ealier than others. mcguire likes to get his hips out of the way so that he can make more use of his upper body. griffey has less lag time. not that mcquire doesn't use his hips - just differently. for those reasons, referencing the knob of the bat to the "hip" is difficult.
i think referencing to the feet (which don't move nearly as much as the hips just before and after heel plant)allows for better comparisons.

"...bathead has already been released..."
i don't think you mean the moment the bathead starts toward the ball, but what point in the swing do you consider the bathead being released?
thinking of the bathead's path as resembling the nike "swoosh", at what point along the path do you consider it being "released"?

it's just so damn difficult trying to understand what people "REALLY" mean.
would you like me to ask hudgens what he really meant? not being smart but, what's preventing you?

"...major leaguers release bathead halfway between front and back hip..."
i kinda, sorta, maybe get it. and if it's what i think i think you think, then i agree. could you maybe clear it up for me? or am i splitting hairs again?

ray porco