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Power vs Control


Posted by: Phil () on Sat Aug 31 08:33:19 2002


Jack M.,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > S. Procito has injected into the discussion the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed. I don't know about the percentage but I agree that a lot of power is a result of where the ball is struck. A fast bat hitting the bottom quarter of the ball
> > > > > > > > > > > is just a higher pop-up then a slower bat.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > But, I never read anything on this, or other sites about the part of the swing that is designed to control the swing and hit the ball in the middle, or near the middle. It's never even mentioned. Why is that?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > S. Procito states that the swing is a "balance of speed and control." I do not think any one can disagree. So, what are the control elements of the swing?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Frank Jessup
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A book was written by 2 scientists (one author was Bahill, I don't remember the name of the other) and they showed that the optimal point of contact is 1/4 inch below center. It never got much attention, with the obsession of THT and all.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Is THT or any other technique mutually exclusive of hitting the middle of the ball?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed"
> > > > > > > > > Which would go farther - a ball hit around the middle with 70 mph batspeed or a ball hit around the middle with 90 mph batspeed?
> > > > > > > > > Don't compare apples and oranges.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Stats to think about
> > > > > > > > > Top 10 Lifetime Batting Averages
> > > > > > > > > Player Lifetime BA Lifetime HR Lifetime Ks Comments
> > > > > > > > > Ty Cobb .366 117 357 1905-1928 primarily deadball era, pure 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > > > > Rogers Hornsby .358 301 679 1915-1937 partly deadball era, at retirement 2nd all time on HR list
> > > > > > > > > Tris Speaker .344 107 220 1907-1928 mostly deadball era
> > > > > > > > > Ted Williams .344 521 709 1939-1960
> > > > > > > > > power and average
> > > > > > > > > Babe Ruth .342 714 1330 1914-1935
> > > > > > > > > power and average. all time strikeout leader at the time. worst year 91 K's
> > > > > > > > > Harry Heilman .342 183 550 1914-1932, 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > > > > Bill Terry .341 154 449 1923-1936 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > > > > George Sisler .340 102 327 1915-1930 partly deadball era, 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > > > > Lou Gehrig .340 493 790 1923-1939
> > > > > > > > > power and average
> > > > > > > > > Tony Gwynn .338 135 434 1982-2001
> > > > > > > > > 'averages' hitter
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 10 ten BA all-time. I left off 1800's players.
> > > > > > > > > 5 of 10 started careers in the deadball era where they established their style.
> > > > > > > > > Gehrig, Ruth, Williams and Hornsby did it all - 40% of the top BA's were also top power hitters.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Top Ten Career OPS (on base % plus slugging %) (stronger measure of productive hitter than BA)
> > > > > > > > > Babe Ruth
> > > > > > > > > Ted Williams
> > > > > > > > > Lou Gehrig
> > > > > > > > > Jimmie Foxx .325 534 1311 1925-1945
> > > > > > > > > Hank Greenberg .313 331 844 1930-1947
> > > > > > > > > Frank Thomas .319 348 847 1990-present
> > > > > > > > > Rogers Hornsby
> > > > > > > > > Barry Bonds .292 567 1282 1986-present
> > > > > > > > > Manny Ramirez .312 277 927 1993-present
> > > > > > > > > Mark McGuire .263 583 1596 1986-2001
> > > > > > > > > (numbers through end of 2001)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The same four guys show up! And you choose who you'd rather have of the other six from these lists.
> > > > > > > > > Yes there is some correlation between high power more Ks, high average, fewer Ks but what's more important is those who hit for power and average. Any rotational hitters in that crew?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Most imortantly, how important are K's anyway?
> > > > > > > > > Production, OPS, runs generated, etc mean much more than K's and batting average.
> > > > > > > > > If you do not understand why OPS is an important measure, then educate yourself.
> > > > > > > > > www.baseballprospectus.com
> > > > > > > > > read Bill James, etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One should not dismiss out of hand an argument that they are totally ignorant of. If you haven't read the book, then you don't understand what the argument is.Read the book and you will see that they were not comparing batspeeds of 70 vs. 90. I might also add that a number of major league hitters have said they hit below center. If you don't understand the logic, read the book. Take my word for it, buddy, there is a lot more to hitting then "top hand torque".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks, buddy. I feel so much more enlightened.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I have Bahill's book and I have read it.
> > > > > > > Where the bat hits the ball and how it gets there are two different issues.
> > > > > > > Are you suggesting that if you swing more slowly you can be more sure to hit the ball 1/4 inch below center, than if you swing faster?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What specifically is the argument you are referring to?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am referring to this ridiculous argument: "the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed"
> > > > > > Which would go farther - a ball hit around the middle with 70 mph batspeed or a ball hit around the middle with 90 mph batspeed?
> > > > > > Don't compare apples and oranges."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you really read the book,you would know that it says nothing about hitting around the ball, but rather below the center of the ball.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And when Frank Jessup makes the point "S. Procito states that the swing is a "balance of speed and control." I do not think any one can disagree. So, what are the control elements of the swing?", you srart rambling about Bill James. Dude, you have a lot to learn about hitting if you think that as long as you hit a homerun here and there, K's are ok.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Phil,
> > > > >
> > > > > Your the one who is off base, pick off, your out!!
> > > > >
> > > > > No one in this thread is talking about 'hitting around the ball', hooking or pulling the ball.
> > > > >
> > > > > The thread is based on the sweet spot, and getting all of the ball. There is a study floating around somewhere on the net comparing solid contact , ball exit velicoty, bat speed. The study showed that high bat speed and poor contact lead to decreased ball exit velicoty, while lower bat speed and solid contact (sweet spot) created higher ball exit velicoty. Over-all I believe the lower batspeed and use of the sweet spot showed greater results.
> > > > >
> > > > > The study included several age groups, although I believe it was mostly HS, College, and perhaps some professional hitters. The results from all groups had the same outcome.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's a rare swing when it flows just right, oh yea, feels real good.
> > > > >
> > > > > The rest of the time it's a mixture of that feeling, and even solid basehits feel good (they have that same feel).
> > > > >
> > > > > There's no mechanic that creates this swing, you cannot command or force the swing. Your left with what just happens, good or bad, what was I thinking, why did I do that, yea that's it, good adjustment perhaps not a great swing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've heard commits on Pete Rose always hitting the ball on the screws (only the sweet spot). Pete didn't have 'batspeed', neither did Wade, they used solid contact and the ball was struck fairly hard/well.
> > > > >
> > > > > Swing-It
> > > >
> > > > Swing-it: Sorry I misunderstood your post. It's that when you said "S. Procito has injected into the discussion the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed. I don't know about the percentage but I agree that a lot of power is a result of where the ball is struck. A fast bat hitting the bottom quarter of the ball is just a higher pop-up then a slower bat" I thought you were talking about what part of the ball is struck, not what part of the bat is struck. It's easy for me to get that impression when you say "hitting the ball around the middle" and
> > > > "hitting the bottom quarter of the ball". There was no reference to the sweet part of the bat in your original post. So strike 3, you're out.
> > > > As far as the comment "hitting around the ball is concerned, "major Dan is the one who said "the idea that hitting the ball around the middle creates as much "power" as bat speed". Maybe he misunderstood your post too, or maybe he was just being Major Dan.
> > >
> > > Phil-
> > > Have you ever played baseball? Have you ever had the excitment of the ball meeting the bat at the exact moment and tearing the cover off the ball? I dont think you have, because if you have you would know that hitting the ball on the screws doesnt happen that often in real games. So, reguardless of what your batspeed is, how you read the pitch is the most important thing. You could swing 60 mph and never hit the ball on the sweet spot if you dont read the ball out of the pitchers hand. Have you ever heard of Barry Bonds? He has 95-100 mph swings and hits 370!! Almost every time he gets a good pitch to hit he demolishes it. He would be hitting 400 easy if they didnt do that shift on him. My point is that slowing your swing down doesnt ensure hitting the ball on the sweet spot more, and having a higher batspeed doesnt ensure hitting the ball on the sweet spot more. Oh and of course you want to hit the ball a little bit below the middle. What kind of retarded comment was that. If you ever looked at this site before you would see the mechanics jack teaches and not making such idiotic points.
> > > Nick
> >
> > To All,
> >
> > This is amazing. I asked what should have been a relative easy question to answer."So, what are the control elements of the swing?" Thats it!
> >
> > No one has answered it. Well, I don't think anyone has answered it. I don't really understand what most of these people are saying.I notice Jack has not answered and the post was directed to him.
> >
> > I think that this is a good illistration of how complicated people have made this process. No one has given a direct answer to the question. People are all over the lot. I wonder what the kids think.
> >
> > F. J.
> >
> >
> Frank,
>
> What type of control factors are you looking for?
>
> The swing is to complicated to explain with mechanics. The more you try to control the swing, the worse you do. We can try to explain all the details of bat control and batspeed.
>
> You hit the ball well or don't, that is your feedback loop. That is your control factor in the statement on batspeed vs control, or the combination of the two.
>
> Unless your swinging with all bat control, trying to control your swing.
>
> Otherwise you only have a singular thought, hands to the ball, swing forward, knob to the ball, get the flat quickly, and none of these thoughts are specifically about actually doing any of these as an mechanic. Ted Williams said the hands and forearms direct the bat to the ball. The more muscular force involved, well no because then we do have to get into the real complicated factors in motor control, biomechanics, to explain what a good swing and a bad swing feels like.
>
> Your correct about a few things, this board is terrible for discussion and threads. The threads and commits go all over the place because there is no continuity. One guy might repost all of thread, the next guy will cut half of the thread.
>
> Just Swing-It


Nick, swing-it, I have no complaint about the fact that the ball jumps off the bat quicker if hit on the sweet part of the bat. You simply did not articulate your postion very clearly, that's all. Next time you want to talk about the sweet part of the bat, say so, rather than talking about "A fast bat hitting the bottom quarter of the ball is just a higher pop-up then a slower bat".


And Nick: My point is that slowing your swing down doesnt ensure hitting the ball on the sweet spot more, and having a higher batspeed doesnt ensure hitting the ball on the sweet spot more. Oh and of course you want to hit the ball a little bit below the middle. What kind of retarded comment was that. If you ever looked at this site before you would see the mechanics jack teaches and not making such idiotic points"---- Duh!! So we have learned from you that slowing the swing down doesn't ensure hitting the ball more on the sweet spot. Brillant observation, pal, and I don't think too many people will disagree with that. Hitting the ball below the middle: if you disagree, read the Bahill book, or ask Steve Garvey. And I agree Jack doesn't make idiotic statements, not that I fully agree with him. But you certainly do a fine job of making idiotic statements, but hopefully they are not on his behalf.
I have one last suggestion: why not start the entire thread over from scratch, now that we know what the subject is and isn't, and maybe the new thread can be free of retarded and idiotic statements.
>
>


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