Posted by: Bart () on Fri Nov 22 10:14:22 2002

If you look at major league hitters, most of them do not get to full
> > > > > > extension until after contact. You will find that the back elbow is tucked and L is made between the upper and lower arm. The lead arm is
> > > > > > is somewhat extended but this is a function of pitch location. The further outside the pitch is the more the lead arm is extended, and the further inside the pitch the more the lead arm is bent. You will also notice the the hands are in the palm up and palm down position. I will admit full extension does occur with all the great hitters but not until after contact.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you look at still photos of Barry Bonds, Sammy Sosa, Luis Gonzalez, Moises Alou, Vladimir Guerrero, and others, you will see at contact they are not at full extension.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I wish I could post some picutres to show you proof. If you look at Jack's analysis of Sammy you will see he is pretty much dead on in describing what happens at contact.
> > > > >
> > > > > Coach, you are right, but to Tom, RQL & others who have visited Setpro in the past, why would Paul Nyman make such an argument?
> > > >
> > > > When Paul says something,you can almost always take it to the bank.If it seems wrong to you,then most likely you have either taken it out of context or you have just not thought deeply enough about things.
> > > >
> > > > My recollection is that Paul's experience of carefully measuring batspeed on at least hundreds of thousands of swings is that maximum batspeed requires a longer swing radius which gives more extension at contact.However,it is more important to have the right blend of batspeed and less extension to optimize being "quick to the ball" with less chance of decelerating before contact.The best swing is a compromise of length of swing and batspeed maximum.
> > > >>There's no telling what is going on in his head ,I can only speculate that if your ideas are not on the money then he may be refering to lead arm extension fully as is correct as long as the bicep is against the chest on an away pitch.This does generate great batspeed in a correct hitting style,I do remember one of Sosa's furthest hits in the h.r. derby going to center.
> >
> > For those who didn't see the post....it was posted in the hitter's forum on 11-9-02. Title: "for those of you have little or no hope".....http://www.setpro.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000033.html
> >
> > After you read the post, can you then tell me if I am taking Nyman out of context, and if so, how so?
> >
> > After me reading and re-reading the post, I have come to the conclusion that Nyman has done a major re-thinking of his philosophy regarding full XT.
>
> Bart-
> I think both Tom and I have explained the context of Paul's statement with reasonable accuracy.
>
> Here is the relavant text:
> "From everything I know about biomechanics, the greatest bat speed is achieved when a player reaches full extension AT contact.
>
> But this extension must be the end result of having "unloaded" the body PROPERLY.
>
> PROPERLY means little or NO DISCONNECT.
>
> And there in lies one of the great "application" problems.
>
> Because most (99%?) players achieve extension by "going after" the ball with their hands.
>
> ...
>
> Griffey can hit the ball as far as he does (for his size) because of his extension (golf swing).
>
> All else being "equal", a golf/extension swing will develop the greatest bat speed (bat speed is not the same as swing quickness).
>
> It is also the most difficult swing to master (hit high level pitching) because it is not a quick swing.
>
> And interesting enough, it is a swing that is "naturally" easier to implement (easier for the body to learn).
>
> And here-in lies the root of almost all hitting "evil" (why players never reach their maximum hitting capabilities).
>
> BECAUSE In order to become a great hitter we must NOT DO what the body WANTS TO "NATURALLY" DO."
>
> What you have to understand from this is that the tradeoff is the key concept here.
> The max batspeed swing - connected golf/type swing with full extention at contact - is the most difficult to master and use against elite pitching.
> Sacrificing some batspeed for swing quickness - like Bonds - is a better path to succeed at hitting at the elite level.
>
> What I find most interesting about Bonds is that despite his 'compromise' he generates batspeeds equal to Griffey's from what I've seen. I suspect that is because his swing is more optimized but that is just conjecture. His strength and explosiveness are superior to Jr's. So all things aren't 'equal' between the two players.
>
> The other point to consider is whether batspeed is the only key factor. I believe one of Paul's points is that swing quickness is as important as pure batspeed - not in terms of hitting the ball the farthest but in terms of successfully hitting the ball hard at the highest levels of play.

Major Dan, I don't believe that you and Tom have adequately explained the context of Nyman's statement.Let's cut to the chase, shall we?. Nyman is clearly saying that full XT is desirable as long as it is achieved the 'right' way. Jack believes (and I think he is probably right) that full XT adds about a 1/2 frame to the swing. Now, either Nyman is wrong or jack is wrong. It is not a question of "context", it is clearly a difference in philosophy. I recognize that you and Tom have spent a lot of time at Setpro, and both of you justifiably have a great deal of respect for Nyman. However, there is simply no way you can finesse this issue as one of "context". Someone is right and someone is wrong.

To Jack: i would be interested in your comments on Nyman's statements. I would especially be interested in your opinion on his statements such as "a golf/extension swing will develop the greatest bat speed (bat speed is not the same as swing quickness)" and

"The max batspeed swing - connected golf/type swing with full extention at contact - is the most difficult to master and use against elite pitching." and

"Sacrificing some batspeed for swing quickness - like Bonds - is a better path to succeed at hitting at the elite level."