Posted by: Art () on Sat Nov 30 15:00:24 2002

>>> I fully understand your tophand torque theory. Whether I totally agree with it is another issue. But lets assume it is correct and that the added dimension of pulling back toward the catcher creates more & earlier batspeed. Earlier batspeed is good, no doubt about it. But this entire discussion started about Paul Nyman's statement that "from what he knows about biomechanics the greatest batspeed is reached at full extension." What is your opinion about where the greatest batspeed is generated? I don't see how these two statements are mutually exclusive. You believe you can start earlier batspeed with tht. Ok, fine. Where is the MAXIMUM batspeed generated? And if it's not at extension, what slows it down prior to extension? Teacherman <<<
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> > > > > > Hi Teacherman
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> > > > > > One of the first concepts I teach students is that in order for them to hit the ball hard they must generate maximum bat speed by contact (bat perpendicular to the ball’s flight). I stress that they must learn that retaining energy to power the bat through the follow-through is energy better used earlier in the swing. This is one reason I find using a heavy bag so productive in developing new swing mechanics. The student soon learns that continuing to drive the back-arm after contact is pointless. --- Below is more information I wrote on this subject.
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> > > > > > The concepts surrounding the "follow-through" phase of the swing have long been misunderstood. Most coaches were themselves taught to continue driving through the ball after contact. Driving through the ball was supposed to add power to the swing. Thus, it is understandable why so many coaches would adopt drills that would require their batters to continue "pushing" the bat through the follow-through phase, such as hitting deflated balls.
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> > > > > > For example, to propel a deflated basketball forward requires the basketball to remain in contact with the bat for an extended period of time. The bat would stay in contact with the deflated ball for eight or more inches after the initial contact. Therefore, swinging at deflated basketballs would definitely require the batter to continue driving toward full extension of the arms. But this is not useful when hitting a baseball or softball.
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> > > > > > Studies have shown that the baseball is only in contact with the bat for approximately 1/2000 of a second. During this split second, the bat moves forward less than 3/4 of an inch (while in contact with the ball). Therefore, any energy applied to the bat after contact has no effect on the ball's flight. In fact, it is simply wasted energy. A batter with good transfer mechanics will deplete all energy for generating bat speed prior to or by contact.
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> > > > > > The purpose of using a heavy bag is to absorb the bat's energy at the contact point. After just a little practice, the batter will learn that exerting force to the bat after contact is pointless. This will help train the batter to develop transfer mechanics (and timing) that will expend all energy prior to or by contact. The batter should deplete all rotational and torque energies as the bat-head reaches maximum velocity and contact. Stated another way, all energy will have been sucked out of the "system" as maximum bat speed is reached.
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> > > > > > Therefore, after all of the body's energy has been transferred into bat speed, the body and limbs are at rest. Hip and shoulder rotation is complete - the arms become relaxed, and there is no energies being applied to the bat. The bat's energy has been expended into the heavy bag, all momentum has ceased, and the muscles are relaxed and motionless. Thus, you now have what amounts to "a frozen video frame" of the batter's mechanics at contact.
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> > > > > > This is not what you will observe with less efficient transfer mechanics. Improper initiation of the swing (thrusting the top-hand forward) quickly places the batter behind the power curve (bat-head dragging) and he/she is left with trying to develop bat speed after the bat reaches the optimum contact point. Striking the heavy bag with tense arms that are still in the driving forward mode, can cause discomfort to the hands and wrist, and should be avoided. Therefore, take it easy until the batter's transfer mechanics improve so that the batter is not applying as much force after contact.
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> > > > > > As you can see, the mechanics developed while swinging at deflated basketballs are quite different than those used with heavy bag drills. A batter's progress will be slowed when hitting an object, which requires the batter to reserve energy for a powerful follow-through. In a good swing, the bat's momentum will pull the body and limbs through the coast-out phase of the swing, not from reserved energy. A heavy bag, used correctly, can assist you in learning rotational mechanics and generating early bat speed.
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> > > > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > > Jack
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> > > > > Is your statement...."One of the first concepts I teach students is that in order for them to hit the ball hard they must generate maximum bat speed by contact"...referring to the maximum batspeed they can generate with proper swing mechanics or the maximum batspeed they can generate using any mechanics they want? Therein lies the context of my argument. Are you saying that Sammy Sosa, or any hitter you choose, can not generate any more batspeed with a dry swing, using any technique he wants to use, than he can with his proper mechanics game swing?
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> > > > > I understand that if I swing the bat 100 mph with my game swing that I want that 100mph reading to be at contact. But my question is, if I can get the 100 mph reading at contact, with my game swing, is it not likely that I can swing it faster if I don't have to worry about contact?
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> > > > > Teacherman
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> > > > Jack, most of what you say makes sense, but this is one of those rare occasions when you simply blew it. That last statement you made about swinging faster if you don't have to worry about contact has absolutely nothing to do with the issue, If I'm missing something please let me know.The issue, as articulated by Bart and Teacherman is this: Bart advocates an L in the swing at contact and Teacherman preaches what the instructors from eons ago called a "power V" at contact. From what I see in hitters, most major league hitters have an L at contact, and most youth hitters have a power V at contact.Jack, you have a great site but I think the last statement you made about not worrying about contact should either be clarified or be retracted. Have a great holiday week end, everyone.
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> > > Art,
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> > > With all due respect, I have not preached the "power V". I am simply saying maximum batspeed is there. I do not believe you can hit that way. Therefore you have to trade off some batspeed for bat quickness.
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> > > Teacherman
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> > Sorry, Jack, you're off the hook. I was thinking it was you who made the comment about not having to worry about contact. I guess it's Teacherman, not you who has some explaining to do. By the way, Teacherman, why would you respond to me? Jack, Tom, Bart, Major Dan and others are the experts, not me. And I think Jack is the one you need to respond to, because as far as I know, Jack is the one who has done numerous studies that prove that "L" power is better than "Power V" power.
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> Art
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> First, is it ok if I respond to you? I assume you said yes......I responded because you misrepresented my posts. You said... "The issue, as articulated by Bart and Teacherman is this: Bart advocates an L in the swing at contact and Teacherman preaches what the instructors from eons ago called a "power V" at contact.....That is far from what I've been posting.
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> Teacherman

OK, thanks for responding to me but I still wish you would answer Jack's questions.I might not be an expert but I do know how to read.Paul did not say full extension gives more batspeed but since quickness is important you have to sacrifice full extension.
I know that's how you are trying to frame the issue but that is not what Paul said. Paul clearly said full extension is better if you do it right. He did not say that just in theory full extension gives more batseed, he said full extemsion is better, just do it right.
Since you insisted on my opinion I am giving it to you.The other guys are right, power V mechanics are a thing of the past, rotational mechanics are more and more being recognized.
Now will you answer Jack's questions?