Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lead Shoulder pull vs. Lead Shoulder rotation
> > > > > I think that focussing on moving the hips first (and not focussing on the shoulders) is bad all around actually. Moving the hips first introduces slack. Ideally, you want the hips and shoulders to be still moving when you strike the ball, but the range of movement of the hips is less than that of the shoulders, so if anything, you want the shoulders to start to rotate first. Additionally, the hips only rotate horizontally, whereas shoulder rotation can have both horizontal and vertical components to it. Rotating the hips first can cause you to have a fatal mismatch between pitch and swing planes if there is any late break to the ball. Overall, discussing power maximization is a fun exercise, but you still have to make contact that a decent clip.
> > > >
> > > > Hi GB,
> > > > Good discussion sir. Respectfully disagree that slack is induced by early hip rotation. Maybe you could clarify what you mean by slack? The way I understand it is if the kinetic link is lost during transfer. The fact is I've followed this site for a couple years and I used to totally agree. I stumbled across some posts from 2003,
> > > > when a nice guy named Andy Green (played for the Diamnondbacks at the time) contributed a series of posts from a pro's perspective. Here is one that explores this same discussion:
> > > > http://www.batspeed.com/messageboard/13414.html
> > > >
> > > > For the last two years my son (10) has practiced a shoulders first approach mainly taught from the mechanics adhered to on this site. I'm forever grateful for this site. I even consciously avoided hip cues, as Jack recommends that by focusing on moving the bathead back to the catcher and through the plane, the mind will "devise a motor program" for the legs to aid that goal. Last year, in the spring he hit .394 over 63 games with only 9 k's against Texas' best teams, so he is an excellent contact hitter. I'm NOT bragging however because he had a total of TWO extra base hits. This last couple months' offseason he worked on activating his hips at heel plant, and making sure he hides the hands at load with a high back elbow, and applies THT via swiveling his shoulders (to your point, a vertical component to the shoulders rotation) while the hips start to rotate, and he is hitting it much harder. He still gets great CHP and shoulder rotation, and remarks that his swing now feels effortless. Anyway, that post and the resulting replies by Jack really highlight the importance of having strong core muscles, and that those torso muscles are the link between the hips and shoulders that keep the chain moving from the ground up.
> > > > Jack, has your position changed since those posts in 2003?
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Steve
> > >
> > > Steve, if you try to put the hips in motion at the same time that you keep the shoulders back, then your spine is providing slack, and that hip movement is not adding to the speed of the hands.
> > >
> > > I appreciate and enjoy the discussion as well. Don't let me fool you into thinking that I'm a pro or something. I just work on my kid's swing a lot, I watch a ton of videos, and I have the academic training of a masters degree (although in business). My 12-year-old kid hits bombs on a regular basis, and rotation of the shoulders is one key thing that we focus on. I never in fact have to talk to him at all about hips; it's something that he does naturally. I happen to feel that people spend way too much time talking about hips for the return that you actually get from it. Just my opinion.
> > Hi Guys
> > Great discussion. This type of discussion is great for everyoneÃƒï¿½Ã‚Â¢ÃƒÂ¯Ã‚Â¿Ã‚Â½ÃƒÂ¯Ã‚Â¿Ã‚Â½s understanding of the mechanics that make up a high level swing. The baseball swing is similar to other rotational transfer of energy movements that the body performs, pitching baseball and fast pitch softball, golf, boxing, throwing the javelin, you get the picture. It is a ground to bat transfer of energy if the shoulders are allowed to lead the kinetic chain is out of whack and the legs that generate the hip rotation is greatly diminished. Watch slow motion videos and you will see that every elite major league hitter leads with his hip.
> > Thanks for the discussion.
> > Coach 1313
> Wait, you forgot football throws, football hits, volleyball serves and spikes, tennis and ping pong? Discus?? Swimming is even rotational. Gymnastics? Try doing beam without a ground up approach. It all involves either a true kinetic link or super strong core muscles. Soccer you say? Try moving the striking leg at the same time as the plant leg. Gotta have SEPARATION. It's what makes limbs go Fast!
> I played golf today for the first time in a couple months, and hit it great with early hip induction and separation. The X factor was my swing key; resist shoulder rotation while you complete your backswing and start to rotate the lead knee. I'm only 5 foot 9 145 lbs, smaller than some 12yr olds and I striped it all day 250-265 staying behind the back hip with a low boring draw. My partner was another coach and he agrees that the swing should be from the ground up as you build resistance and power.
Thanks guys, but I would caution you against comparing the baseball swing to any of those other activities (especially golf). One key factor makes baseball fundamentally different, and that is that you've got to find the ball first in order to hit it with power. Both bat and ball have tiny surfaces. The speed of the approaching ball varies. The direction varies. You cannot compare that to striking a golf ball that is sitting stationary on the tee, and you can you can chose to strike it at your leisure. In baseball, making contact should be as much, if not more, of a pre-occupation as striking the ball with maximum power. Pre-occupation with rotation of the hips first can cause you to be fatally misaligned with any vertically moving pitch. Moreover, while it may be physically true that the movement does start from your feet first and transfer through your hips and upwards, that does not mean that that is how you should mentally approach your swing. It is very easy to rotate your hips without your shoulders moving, but it is very hard to rotate your shoulders as is required to complete a baseball swing without your hips subconsiously being engaged in the process. As we have discussed before, the shoulder movement involves both vertical and horizontal axes (how much so depends upon the direction of the approaching ball). This requires much more thought than the simple horizontal rotation of the hips. Making contact with a live baseball is a complex undertaking, and during this process the mind should be engaged mainly with how to align the swing plane with the plane of the pitch as opposed to a movement with subconsciously occurs anyway.
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