Posted by: grc () on Thu Nov 9 09:26:01 2000

>>>Jack I would think it would be helpful to all if we could see some clips of linear hitters and how their swings differ on tape.All I ever see posted is chp and I figure you saw some in your investigation,Tim Olson said he may be able to put them up if he had some names.Luis soho came to mind to me,and I wonder about Paul O'neill,ofcourse I wondered about Rose also,did anyone see the clip of Rose from the left side on no chop ma ,thread on set pro,from behind is that circular when going up the middle.If we are going to talk about the difference between the 2 and talk about slo mo video we should know equally well what the linear swing looks like.RQL <<<
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> > > > Hi RQL
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> > > > If we define a linear hitter as having a hand-path that is straight all the way from A to B, we would find few of them in the professional ranks. This would require the hands to be 6 to 8 inches away from the body at initiation. Although many batters may have the hands away from the body in their stance, most will bring the hands back and in before they are started forward. So most all hitters will have the hands start with some arc in their path.
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> > > > Most of the swings I charted were viewed from behind the pitcher. From that viewpoint I could not accurately give a rating as to how circular or straight the hand-path was. I found it better to note the position of the hands at initiation and contact and the maximum bend to the lead arm during the swing. By combining the ratings from these three items a fairly accurate depiction of the hand-path could be made.
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> > > > Example ---If the hands were away from the body at initiation I gave it a (1or 2) - a (3) if they were hidden the body - a (4 to 5) if the hands were visible behind the body. -- A rating of (5 to 1) depending on how straight the lead arm remained during the swing. -- A rating of (1 to 5) depending on how far the back arm was extended at contact. NOTE: A long extension of the back arm means a straighter hand-path.
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> > > > RQL, to me a linear swing is also defined by the direction of force of the hands at initiation. If the force of BOTH hands is directed more back toward the pitcher - it's linear --- If the forces are in opposing directions - it's rotational.
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> > > > Jack Mankin
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> > > > Jack does anyones hands actually go from where they are in the stance at a 45 degree chop down to the ball or does the hands always drop from vertical in stance to horizontal near launch before going to ball.Its important to me to understand both theories because I always felt I was linear but my little bit of old tape seems to show me rotational.Also could a hitter be linear somewhat with his hips ,shifting and chp up top .Im experimenting with my swinging and my back shoulder is dipping as I go into the ball for the plane .Can they be mixed physiologically but not optimally.
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> > Jack,RQL,grc,etal-
> >
> > I have been wondering how important arm strength is to good mechanics.Also,it seems that only the very strongest can torque well early in the swing without some preswing assist from the elbow and/or cocking/uncocking.I also think that the feel of the hands is likely to be the best controller of the overall swing program because of the richness of fine and gross motor control at the level of the hands.With this in mind,I might make the following comment about Jack's principles:
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> > You have to getthings on the right plane at initiation
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> > You have to maintain the circular hand path until contact
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> > When the hands make the rest of the body torque them,the bat swings out,dramatically increasing the demand for power from the torso turn.This slows the body and releases the bathead.This requires strength for the slightest bit of adjustment/refinement that differs from the initial motor program.These adjustments can still only occur in that initial plane,but can change the timimgnand swing radius by how far the back arm has come out of the"L"(the hands have to stay in the arc) and the amount of shoulder turn also determines how outside/inside the sweetspot is.So the hands can control the timing and position of contact by when they apply torque,with a greater range of adjustment with increased strength.
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> > Piazza's inside pitch homer is an example of how this might work for the very inside pitch.He has to continue the shoulder turn more in front of the body and tightening the handpath arc.This requires accentuating the leaning back as the hands come around the front.This accentuates"bottom hand torque" and delays the release of the bathead("L" coming out) which keeps the ball fair.He also has to shorten the front arm to move the sweetspot in and help in the tightening of the handpath arc.As the hitter learns these swings,it feels as if the hands are the place where things are controlled.
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> > So this is a way of thinking about hoe the hands control the implementation of Jack's principles. ..>>>Jack you said only 22 hitters hit rotation 10 to 12 years ago and recently as many as 60 some hitters or 3-4 per team if this is so can you say then most still don't rotate but only weight shift and can you weight shift and have chp.Names of hitters who take their hands right to the ball would be helpful to follow and see how they look in game situations.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rql.....jack said "only 22 hitters hit rotation 10 to 12 years ago and recently as many as 60 some hitters or 3-4 per team" .......i too would like to put some names behind these numbers because i find it hard to believe there were that few in number who were rotational......to jack.....is it safe to generally equate linear with weight shift & rotational with circular hand path?....if so, then i think your numbers are WAY off....respectfully, grc.....