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Re: Re: Re: Bonds/fastpitch softball


Posted by: () on Wed Mar 10 06:51:09 2004


Last week the softball forums were filled with comments about the charity softball game between American and National league players. As part of it they had an exhibition of Jenny Finch (Olympic pitcher) vs. six of the major leaguers. She struck out all six. She got them mostly on rise balls that wouldn't have been called strikes. Here is one of the comments: "Check out Barry Bonds' swing -- at the beginning of the swing the bat head is already on the hitting plane (it's pointing into the catcher's glove) -- with the head of the bat dropped to that point, there is NO way he or any other baseball player can recover the head to hit a either a true honest-to-God riseball or even the more common running riser (fastball that elevates like a jet taking off during its 40- or 43-foot course to home plate) with girls/women." I don't necessarily agree with that but do have concerns.
> > > I am in the process of converting my daughter to rotational mechanics and want to know your ideas about the rise balls that she is going to see (u18) and applying rotational mechanics.
> > > I contend that 90% of rise balls are not strikes and learn to lay off them but that is easier said then done when they are throwing 4 or 5 different pitches at her.
> > > Comments please.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Bmill,
> >
> > Don't hesitate to teach your daughter rotational mechanics to hit fastpitch softball.
> >
> > As I commented a couple weeks ago on my initial post to this board, there are some small but important adjustments helpful when hitting fastpitch when using rotational methods from hitting a baseball. Most of these small adjustments that I recommend for fastpitch are necesary due to the different plane of the incoming pitch and the reduced reaction time available to hit top-level fastpitch.
> >
> > One result when hitting a riseball is that you'll usually end up being more upright upon contact.
> >
> > Another adjustment when hitting a riseball is that the top hand is often more used than when hitting a baseball. In baseball, too much top hand can result in rolling the wrists and getting on top of the ball. On a riseball, you want to try to get on top of the ball. (When is the last time you saw someone swing above a top-level rise ball?)
> >
> > As far as the best professional baseball hitters hitting a fastpitch softball off of male or female world class pitching... Although it's been tried in exhibitions many times, I don't think any pro baseball player has ever had any success. Doesn't matter if it's Ty Stoflett against Reggie Jackson years ago or the most recent exhibition you reference.
> >
> > In order for them to have reasonable success, they would need to face this type of pitching for an extended period of time and make some small but important making some adjustments in their swing. If they would do this, most of them would be exceptional fastpitch hitters. One thing they would not need to do would be to change the foundation of their rotational mechanics, However they would need to accomplish their mechanics faster and with more precision.
> >
> > From my experience, Baseball players that face world-class fastpitch pitching for even a short time and then go back to baseball, could become better baseball hitters. I believe it would benefit them mentally as well as physically. Mentally it could help because they would never face anyone that gives you less time to see the ball. Physically, they would need to clean up their swing and that benefit would serve them well in hitting a baseball as well.
> >
> > Also, as I said in my initial post a couple weeks ago, be careful whom you listen to. 90 % of the stuff I've noticed being taught to fastpitch softball players is counter-productive to anything I've experienced or witnessed. My experience in softball is drawn from playing on the best men's teams in the world with the best players in the world for a couple of decades. (Side Note: I recognized a post a while ago from Dave from British Columbia. I competed for years against Dave when he represented Canada in International competitions. While his "style" at the plate when he initially set up was among the most unique, I'll vouch for his ability to hit top-level fastpitch. Dave P. can flat hit and is a hell of a competitor!)
> >
> > Until I recently spent a little time on the net, I never realized that people were so polarized and personally attached to hitting methods. Nowadays I spend my free time coaching my own son's how to hit a baseball. In addition I volunteer my experience coaching their travel team and also do some workshops for the high school. From my observations watching players around here hitting a baseball, I'd like to return as a pitcher. The vast, vast majority of these players do not have the fundamentals to continue their careers beyond high school and hit even mediocre college pitching. The biggest problem I see is that they are out on their front foot and can't get their hands through. When they hit the ball they don't drive it. It's painful to watch!
> >
> > My experience watching women's fastpitch over the years has been mainly limited to catching a few games of the National teams at venues where we were also competing like the Pan Am games or Olympic Sports Festivals. It was my observation that at the highest women's level, outside of the slap hitters, the best of the best were employing rotational mechanics.
> >
> > The last couple years I was able to watch a few of our local girl's high school games. My observations here are similar to my observations of low-level baseball. It's painful to watch. I witnessed hitters diving out in front, hands can't get through, nobody can drive the ball, bat flattened as swing is initiated, players can't get on top of rise ball nor can they stay back and drive a drop ball.
> >
> > My instruction is based on what I have seen the most successful hitters in the game do and obviously my experience applying it to my game. You can also learn a lot from watching what the average hitters do and what makes them ordinary. I know during my career I certainly evolved as a hitter. Like someone once said, "I wish I knew then what I know now". Having said that, I am new to this forum and barely know the difference between a THT and a BLT. Through my career when I got together with the "Ted Williams' of fastpitch and talked hitting, we didn't use these specific terms, but much of what I recognize that Jack teaches are the same techniques that we have been using for years to hit a fastpitch softball.
> >
> > So in a round about way, I will conclude by saying you are on the right track by using rotational mechanics for hitting fastpitch. I can only surmise that whoever is teaching all these hitters to fall on their face and get their elbows in the way as they swing, must be frustrated pitchers who are still hell bent on getting hitters out.
> >
> > Best of Luck,
> >
> > SBK
> >
> >
> >
> Outstanding response.
>
> I do have two comments:
>
> 1) Strong agreement on MLB players hitting the rise ball. I realize Finch struck out 6 players (2 were pitchers, right, so she struck out 4 MLB hitters). After (pick a number) 1-2 million swings in a lifetime all facing pitching w/ a similar trajectory, facing a riser has got to look pretty weird to these guys. Obviously, they expect the pitch to move downward at the usual 10-15 degrees to which they are accustomed. It's the same reason it works on FP players - they expect the pitch to move downward at the "usual" 5-7 degrees. When it maintanis a slight incline through the hitting zone - or even if it flattens out it is very deceiving to the eye.
>
> Irrespective of this, I think an MLB player facing the pitch for a couple BP sessions would handle it w/ relative ease. One thing I know for sure - the MLB hitters would not stray from their rotational mechanics to hit the pitch. They'd simply make the adjustments you articulated to remain "on plane," and that would serve them well.
>
>
> 2) Minor disagreement: I don't think timing is more difficult for the FP hitter. At least for the female FP hitter (I realize in male FP it is reduced and undoubtedly that was your frame of reference - however the original post releated to JO FP). I have a bias towards the FP game - no hidden agenda here but I still believe the timing is more difficult for the baseball hitter.
>
> With release points of 34' vs. 55' and speeds of low 60s vs. low 90s, RT is a wash But I still think timing is more difficult in baseball than in (at least) JO FP. The greater speed of the baseball means that the ball is traveling through the hitting zone for a shorter period of time, thus accentuating timing difficulty. Taken to an extreme, a pitch fired out of a cannon at 600 mph from 350 feet would permit the same batter reaction time of roughly .45 second. However, the ball would be unhittable because it would be in the hitting zone for only about .01 seconds.
>
> Sure enjoyed your insightful post and real world experience.
>
> Highest regards,
>
> Scott

Hi Scott,

Can't disagree with anything you write.

You are right, my thought process was from a men's fastpitch view. Three of the hardest throwers I faced were Canadians, Brad Underwood and Darren Zack and Kiwi, Peter Meredith. They regularly threw around 80 mph, which is probably rt comparable to 110 or so in baseball. If it were only going straight it might be deemed almost hittable.

Having faced high level softball and baseball I can unequivocally say that there’s no comparison, which is more difficult.

Having said that, I believe most mlb hitters could eventually become good high-level fastpitch hitters if they could handle the initial failure process. The reason is because they all possess two of the primary ingredients necessary, hand eye coordination and bat speed. It would be rare for any of these players to accomplish this within a couple of seasons.

Now on the other hand if played in a local men’s fastpitch game or a competitive women’s game where the pitching was in the 60’s, within a couple weeks they would find some success and the next week after that, I wouldn’t want to be the third baseman.

It’s amazing what just a few mph’s can do hitting a ball, let alone 20 mph. I have noticed that in pro baseball in instances where the pitcher is throwing only 4 or 5 mph’s (95 to 100 mph) over standard, a substantial number of pro’s do not have a swing that can catch up with it (especially if the pitcher has an effective off speed that the hitter must respect).

As far as women’s softball, I have the utmost respect for the top players. They are asked to hit pitching that is not as fast as the top men’s game, but they have to find a way to do it with much less strength.

Best of Luck,

SBK


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