Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

Posted by: Saat () on Sun Dec 16 16:10:32 2001

darts anyone?
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> > > > > i call it "geometrized swing" and it's too long and i want to watch football (steeler's WILL rule, ruin, raze, and wreck the raven's) so i'll divide it in parts.
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> > > > > geometrized swing.
> > > > > Part I: pitch-hit angles.
> > > > >
> > > > > if:
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> > > > > -only plane geometry considered (not solid).
> > > > > -overhead view of baseball diamond with home plate at bottom of view and pitching plate at top.
> > > > > -average size rh pitcher with 3/4 delivery.
> > > > > -average size rh batter using 34 inch bat.
> > > > > -sweet spot of bat is 6 inches in from end of barrel and grip shall be established as the point located between hands, 4 inches from end of knob.
> > > > > -pitched fastball with no movement.
> > > > > -coordinates of pitcher's release point is 5 feet closer toward home plate from home plate side of pitching plate and 2 feet left of center from a line drawn from center-line of pitching plate to center-line of home plate.
> > > > > -an extreme outside pitch will be considered a pitch that intersects the center point of the ball with the point formed by the front and outside edges of home plate. inside pitch directly opposite.
> > > > >
> > > > > then(using sine tables and the knowledge that the home plate edge of the pitching rubber is 60 feet 6 inches to the apex occurring at the rear of home plate and that the plate is 17 inches wide and 17 inches deep):
> > > > >
> > > > > -a pitch pitched to the center of home plate creates an angle of approximately 88 degrees formed between the path of the pitch and the front edge of home plate.
> > > > > -a pitch to the extreme outside corner forms an angle of 87 degrees.
> > > > > -a pitch to the inside corner forms an angle of 89 degrees.
> > > > >
> > > > > maximum impact between ball and bat occurs when sweet spot of bat impacts sweet spot of ball (a bat impacting ball perpendicular to the path of the ball. for now, only considering a flat plane and not dimensional. elevations not considered).
> > > > > a hit, using this maxim, would have the bat strike the ball in such a way as to send it directly opposite from whence it came.
> > > > > therefore, a pitch to the center of the plate, would require a bat positioned (at contact) to form an angle of 2 degrees with the front edge of the plate. this would send the ball 2 degrees to the left field side of straight-away center field.
> > > > > a pitch to the outside corner would be hit 3 degrees to the left field side of center field, and an inside pitch only 1 degree to the left field side.
> > > > >
> > > > > amazing. THIS WOULD SEEM TO SUGGEST THAT WE PULL (albeit, ever so slightly) AN OUTSIDE PITCH MORE THAN AN INSIDE PITCH.
> > > > >
> > > > > AND:
> > > > >
> > > > > a CURVEBALL on the outside corner would create an angle of even less degree.
> > > > >
> > > > > dart's please!
> > > > >
> > > > > next up. Part II: hand position.
> > > > >
> > > > > ray porco
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray, in a way you are right, because when you say " WE PULL (albeit, ever so slightly) AN OUTSIDE PITCH MORE THAN AN INSIDE PITCH ", that is exactly what frequently happens when you contact the ball (outside pitch)the same distance in front of home plate as you would an inside pitch. And this type of contact frequently results in a weak grounder to the pull side.
> > > >
> > > > Using the front edge of home plate as a reference point, let's say a hitter contacts an inside pitch 18 inches in front of home plate. That same hitter should then contact a middle pitch closer in, for example 9 inches in front of home plate. And the outside pitch will be contacted perhaps even with front edge of home plate.
> > > >
> > > > If you try to contact the outside pitch the same 18 inches in front of home plate as you would an inside pitch, your arms will be stretched to the limit, and if you make contact at all, the hands will roll over before contact, producing a weak ground ball. And if I read your post right, in your model you were assuming all 3 pitches (is, os ,mid)to be the same distance in front of home plate. Again, an is pitch has to be contacted farther out in front of the plate than an outside pitch.
> > > >
> > > > I'll leave it at that for right now, but I just have to mention that hitting an is vs. os pitch not only depends on right contact point but also depends on what part of the ball you hit (is pitch, hit the outside part of the ball, os pitch, hit the inside part of the ball).
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> > > saat,
> > >
> > > where did you come from? your beautiful, baby!. stick around.
> > >
> > > i have to tell you that i don't advocate hitting an outside and inside pitch the same distance off the plate. merely stating that maximum hit occurs when a bat strikes a moving ball at 90 degrees (sweet spot to sweet spot, direct opposite direction from where it came). i agree with that fact, but it's TOO HARD TO PULL OFF CONSIDERING YOU CAN ONLY ASSUME ONE POSITION IN THE BATTER'S BOX. your response to tom.guerry below gives some very good reasons why our body doesn't allow us to pull it off. trying to hit all pitched balls perpendicular affects "hand position", which is affected by body position (in the box), which i plan on presenting in part II.
> > >
> > > you also touched on what i had prepared for part III-ANGLE OF INCIDENCE AND ANGLE OF REFLECTION. you said, "...also depends on what part of the ball you hit (is pitch, hit the outside part of the ball, os pitch, hit the inside part of the ball).".
> > >
> > > but i don't want to get toooooo far ahead. that's how these discussion boards all start to drift. toooooo many tangents to discussion.
> > >
> > > concentrating just on why we should not, "...PULL AN OUTSIDE PITCH MORE THAN AN INSIDE PITCH." you said, "If you try to contact the outside pitch the same ... as you would an inside pitch, your arms would be stretched to the limit,..."
> > > why? what about body tilt? tilting the axis of the "stake driven through your head and out the butt".
> > >
> > > you also said further,"...the hands will roll over before contact, producing a weak ground ball.". what physically causes this to happen? and why do we hit a weak ground ball when the hands roll over?
> > >
> > > have my own ideas, just wanted to hear yours.
> > >
> > > ray porco
> >
> > I'm beginning to like this site even though there are some things I don't agree with. I'll try to answer your quesions, one by one.
> >
> > You said "you said, "If you try to contact the outside pitch the same ... as you would an inside pitch, your arms would be stretched to the limit,..."
> > > why? what about body tilt? tilting the axis of the "stake driven through your head and out the butt".
> >
> > My response: If you take a bat and simply extend both arms as far as they will go in the direction of the ball, the bat angle will be about "minus" 15 degrees in relation to the front edge of home plate, and at this "contact point" will be about 20 or so inches closer to the front edge of home plate than it would be if you were pulling a pitch.(Remember, pulling the ball means full hip rotation; full hip rotation doesn't simply mean more power, it also brings the hands around to a position where they can enable the bat to contact farther out in front of the plate).This is the point where the arms have simply stretched as far as they can stretch. At this point, try it yourself with both hands on the bat, of course. Try moving the bat an extra 6 or 8 inches farther in front. One of two things should happen: (1) the bat will roll over if you don't restrain your wrist from rolling or (2) if you make a conscious effort to restrain your wrist from rolling, the bat should start moving away from the intended contact point.
> >
> > Body tilt: Yes, the body needs to lean toward the outside pitch, and body tilt inhibits full hip rotation. On an outside pitch you have to reach the ball somehow. If you lean towards the ball, you will inhibit hip rotation, but if you fully rotate the hips, you don't get as much , if any body lean, but you also don't, at least at an optimal angle, reach the ball.
> >
> > You said: "you also said further,"...the hands will roll over before contact, producing a weak ground ball.". what physically causes this to happen? and why do we hit a weak ground ball when the hands roll over?"
> >
> >
> > As to why a wrist rollover produces a weak ground ball, it's quite easy to perform a simple experiment to understand. Hold a bat in your top hand, palm facing up. Turn or "roll" your wrist 90 degrees. The bat went in an upward direction, right? Suppose your target is the center of the ball & with the intent of making contact with the top palm facing the sky.Shortly before contact, if the wrist rolls, the bat "rolls" in an upward direction, striking the top part of the ball, resulting in a ground ball.
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> saat,
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> forgive me. got everything except that third paragraph -
> "My response: If you take a bat and..."
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> couldn't get it. would you run it by me again?
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> and how does body tilt inhibit rotation?
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> as far as your response to what causes the hands to roll over and why a weak ground ball - well put, and i agree.
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> thanks,
> ray porco
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> "My response: If you take a bat and simply extend both arms as far as they will go in the direction of the ball, the bat angle will be about "minus" 15 degrees in relation to the front edge of home plate, and at this "contact point" will be about 20 or so inches closer to the front edge of home plate than it would be if you were pulling a pitch."

In other words, forget swinging the bat for a minute. For sake of discussion, let's say that a pull hitter would contact an inside pitch about 18 inches or so in front of home plate and , using the front edge of home plate as a reference point, let's say the bat angle is 30 degrees (bathead ahead of knob).Now, without swinging, simply imagine a contact point that is on the outside corner of the plate and zero inches in front of home plate. Extend the arms & freeze the bat at this imaginary contact point.The bat angle should be about -15 degrees or so (knob closer to the pitcher than the bathead). At this point, the front arm especially has reached the point where any atttempt to contact the ball any farther out in front (for example, 10 inches instead of zero inches in front of the plate)will result the wrist (palm up) starting to roll over. What would allow the ball to be contacted farther out in front would be more hip/shoulder rotation. But full hip/shoulder rotation would mean the bat going not just forward 10 inches, but also back in towards the 1b man (if you are a left handed hitter).Afterall, if you maintain a circular hand path, your bathead would now be in the second half of that "circle", going AWAY from the direction of the ball.

"and how does body tilt inhibit rotation?

Answer: Just bend over at the waist and see how much more dificult it is to turn the hips & shoulder, then try doing the same thing while trying to swing a bat. This is where the concept of "linear" has the big advantage over "rotational", because using "linear" mechanics means leaning in the very same direction of your target, whereas in rotational you are rotating AWAY from your target.
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Followups:
 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: ray porco [ Mon Dec 17 15:04:42 2001 ] body tilt and rotation tom.guerry [ Mon Dec 17 07:53:30 2001 ]

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