Posted by: TC2 () on Thu Apr 29 17:43:27 2004

>>> Follow up to my follow up. Same clip referenced on Epsteins site but you can add his other student clips as well from same site. "Head is down" at POC (point of contact). Again- Epstein is not teaching what he sees and advocates on all his tapes, CD's and in his literature?
>
> Even his own videos show it if you have it (check out the A-Rod swing in super slow mo if your vcr has it) Not only does his head stay down at POC but it remains down (eyes at the plate) with the ball long out of the picture! I have countless other still photo's and videos of some of the greatest hitters of the game, past and present at POC and or just before and after. "Head down" on contact is the "categorical norm" of all these great hitters.
> Now, Epstein does have some classic video shots of hitters with their heads facing out and "it appears" looking at the pitcher. My contention in those circumstances is that the hitter is hitting the pitch "out in front of the plate"...pulling it...so...yes...that is exactly where their head/eyes should be...at the power V. That doesn't "sell me" on his theory that every hitter should be looking out at the pitcher or in the 10 foot zone? Take these same hitters swinging a millisecond later (ball gets in) at the same pitch you would see their heads "down" at POC.
>
> Even (especially) his student Brandon that he teaches on his video in his final swings it is EASY to see that his head "absolutely- unequivocally" is down on contact. Yet- Mr. Epstein either "doesn't see it that way" or...he has a different definition of what "head down" means?
>
> One more thing- if you can super slow mo (frame by frame) his already slow video clips you will find he consistently fades out the swings of those he is touting at POC...when, in my observation, the head is down...but...coincidentally...the viewer doesn't get to see that? We easily note the "torque and rotation" but are not able to note the head position at contact? Oversight? Perhaps?
> Exceptions on his tape: Edgar Martinez and A-Rod watch those clips in super slow mo and you won't be able to argue my point and my problem with Epstein telling the world of coaches "we aren't teaching what we see" when it is obvious to anyone with vision...neither is he. And sorry to say...coaches are literally buying $$$ into it?
>
> For any coach to lessen the importance of good "head discipline" IMO this goes against the principles of good fundamental swing mechanics. Head discipline is evident in the hundreds of pictures I have showing successful pros and best hitters who ever played the game at POC. If you open your sports page today you may very well see a photo of a pro player at POC with head down usually followed by a caption "game winning HR or base hit". Epstein's results, be they from proven drills or methodologies "produce rotational hitters" but in his promotion of same- he absolutely contradicts himself in his verbal analysis and descriptions of the swing itself. IMHO, causing himself some credibility (though he has gained plenty).
>
> Therefore and with all due respect to Mr. Epstein who has rightfully earned his guru title, I believe BHL using the terms "brilliant" to butter up to Epstein is a bit overboard for this board. <<<
>
> Hi TC2
>
> Welcome to the site. --- I would assume that you stress “head down” as a means of showing that the batter is following the ball with his eyes. I have not found this to be a problem with most hitters (read: http://www.batspeed.com/tf10.html). Although I have seen many batters whose head lowers at contact, I have also noted a number of top hitters, whose head remain fairly fixed once they initiate their swings (ball about 15 to 20 feet out).
>
> TC2, I have often wondered if the lowering of the chin in many hitters at contact was not due as much to a normal reaction to exertion of the swing as for following the ball.
>
> Jack Mankin.

Jack,

You are correct I never said their heads are down "seeing the ball hit the bat" because I don't beleive that is physically possible.
I merely said their head is down at POC and as you allude to and I agree, because it is a natural reaction to their proper swing mechanics. When I asked Mike Epstein about this his response was that if the head is down the hands tend to go down as well. Too which I said we agree and... at POC the hands should be where? Certainly more down than up! Thus- we actually agreed on the same principle but he would still not deviate from his line of thinking that...the head is not down at POC and only he knows why or how he can justify that statement?

If you could Jack, please reference for me for my own research those batters you have witnessed who keep their head still throughout their swings and in so doing appear to not have their heads down (chins in) at POC. You clearly have reviewed much more clips and hitters than I ever have so I can't/won't argue you on that but would still like to "see this with my own eyes" so I can continue to teach what I see.

Thanks!